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Trudeau admires China's 'basic dictatorship'

fuji

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Admiring China because it can get things done, or admiring their efficiency makes sense. But if you used your brain for
a second, then you will realize that their efficiency and their ability to get things done are mainly because they
can violate human rights or force people to do whatever they want. So if the communists say "we want a super highway built
thru downtown Toronto", they will forcibly remove people and business that hinder their plans.
That's an individualist perspective. China is a collectivist culture and society. The Chinese believe what is good for the country is more important than what is good for a particular town, and that what is good for the town is more important than what is good for a particular family, and that what is good for the family is more important than what is good for an individual. It's core Chinese culture. It's why they put their family names first, and their personal names second, a good chunk of Chinese culture is based on this concept.

Western society is both democratic AND individualist. China is non-democratic AND collectivist.

There is no doubt that that the non-democratic aspects of China have hurt he country in the past. The present leaders of the Communist Party of China will all agree with you that rule under the Gang of Four was a disastrous setback for the country. No doubt.

But you will not find much agreement in China for the view that moving to a more inclusive system means moving to an individual rights perspective. They still prefer a collectivist perspective, and they are trying to arrive at some sort of government that is inherently collectivist. That's what they value. How to reconcile that with democracy is an interesting and hard problem -- but a democratic government, if China were to adopt one, could presumably STILL be a collectivist government that STILL has the authority to kick families around for the sake of the town, and move towns around for the sake of the country.

I have been to the Three Gorges Dam area, and spoken with people who were relocated. They didn't have a choice about being relocated, they were simply forced to move. But you know what? Most of them were happy about that, because they were forced to move from dilapidated cramped uninsulated mud floor homes without electricity or running water, to new modern construction insulated apartments with more floor space, electricity, and indoor plumbing. They got their own bathrooms for the first time EVER. And they got phones. And they got internet. They got the ability to heat their homes in the winter--all stuff that they never had before. There was a lot of bickering about, "my home was worth more, you should give me a bigger apartment", but almost no one really preferred to stay in their old homes.

So were their rights violated? They were denied any choice, but in almost every case, they were made better off by the change. To the extent that some of them valued their personal attachment to their ancestral shack over modern convenience, there are probably a few who were made worse off.

But then ask the question -- does the community have rights too? In a collectivist society, there is a perception that the society itself has rights. In the West we are familiar with the concept of trading off the rights of one individual against another. In China, they trade off the rights of the society against the rights of the individual. Is that a violation? Or just a tradeoff?

To me there are two SEPARATE issues here:

-- A different conception of rights in a collectivist society, where society itself is perceived as having rights, and being more important to the individual

-- The lack of democratic oversight in the Chinese system, which creates the possibility that officials in power may abuse their position for their own benefit, to the detriment of BOTH society AND indivdiduals

So I think China has work to do on the second point, but you are mixing in the first -- and I don't think very many Chinese would agree with you even if you put that question to them in a free and fair election.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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Nobody puts their communist country 1st

That's an individualist perspective. China is a collectivist culture and society. The Chinese believe what is good for the country is more important than what is good for a particular town, and that what is good for the town is more important than what is good for a particular family, and that what is good for the family is more important than what is good for an individual. It's core Chinese culture. It's why they put their family names first, and their personal names second, a good chunk of Chinese culture is based on this concept.
I don't know were the hell you get this from,...if you have EVER dealt with main land Chinese to any extent,...they are just like anybody else,...the individual and family come 1st,...and the country, NOT even on the list.

And the main reasons are,...communism,...and corruption,...which more than justifies their view point.

And before you runoff at the mouth,...I enjoy dealing with them,...you know exactly were you stand,...and great sense of humour,...which I guess you would have to have, living in a communist country

FAST
 

fuji

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China is not even remotely communist these days, FAST. Not since a couple of decades. It certainly isn't a democracy either, it's a one party state, but there isn't anything communist about it.
 

fmahovalich

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Aug 21, 2009
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China is not even remotely communist these days, FAST. Not since a couple of decades. It certainly isn't a democracy either, it's a one party state, but there isn't anything communist about it.

Pardon Fuji. Perhaps it's AID TO NORTH KOREA might give you an inkling as to where they stand on issues!
 

George The Curious

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Nov 28, 2011
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Fuji, I agree with what you say mostly about Chinese. Except for the collectiveness. Yes it is generally true for all Asian countries to value collective above individual, but not China because it is a big country made of many local dialects and cultures each very unique on its own. The reason China could not defend against Japan in wwi and wwii is not because they did not have enough military power but because most of military was dispersed into local warlords, not in command of central government, which was very corrupt at the time. That's why Japan could easily conquer China piece by piece.

if you talk to a beijin person, he will likely to put down shanghai people, vise versa. Japan even at 1/10 of China size, it is a more "united" collective culturally than China, even their local dialects are not too different from each other. that's why they were easier to modernize in early 1900s. However with internet and new communication technology, China is shrinking in size therefore may give rise to a new nationalism.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,063
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If it walks like a duck ...

China is not even remotely communist these days, FAST. Not since a couple of decades. It certainly isn't a democracy either,it's a one party state, but there isn't anything communist about it.
I can agree with you about China being a one party state,...but it just happens to be,...

The Communist Party of China (CPC), also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China.

FAST
 

aussie9

aussie9
Dec 15, 2011
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I can agree with you about China being a one part state,...but it just happens to be,...

The Communist Party of China (CPC), also known as the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), is the founding and ruling political party of the People's Republic of China.

FAST
What do you expect? his dad was a commie sympathizer. !!!!
 

aussie9

aussie9
Dec 15, 2011
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China is not even remotely communist these days, FAST. Not since a couple of decades. It certainly isn't a democracy either, it's a one party state, but there isn't anything communist about it.
Except that it sends its agents to steal research from Canadian universities; develop it and sell it back to us. costing jobs in Canada. Shame on us for being so stupid Mr. Trudeau and little naive Trudeau
 

George The Curious

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Nov 28, 2011
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Except that it sends its agents to steal research from Canadian universities; develop it and sell it back to us. costing jobs in Canada. Shame on us for being so stupid Mr. Trudeau and little naive Trudeau
there is no need to steal anything from universities. Their doors are open. You and I can walk in any day and look around. research results are published in science journals all the time. Knowledge is supposed to be shared to promote advance.
 

fuji

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if you talk to a beijin person, he will likely to put down shanghai people, vise versa.
I think you're talking about something different than the collective expectations on government. People are very proud of their families, their cities, and their country in that order. But they expect the national government to look out for the entire nation, and they expect the city government to look out for the entire city. People in Shanghai are not upset that the Shanghai government bulldozed a lot of homes to build out pudong, and they are not upset that the little twisty narrow hutongs were all smashed to build up puxi. They are extraordinarily proud that these things have been done, and they will tell anyone who wants to listen how much better Shanghai is than any other city in the world.
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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Here are the words: "“There is a level of admiration I actually have for China because their basic dictatorship is allowing them to actually turn their economy around on a dime and say we need to go green, we need to start, you know, investing in solar. There is a flexibility that I know Stephen Harper must dream about: having a dictatorship where you can do whatever you wanted, that I find quite interesting.”

Nowhere in there does he say anything remotely like he supports China "because it can force its people to do things regardless of whether they make sense or not,whether they are good for people or not". You just blatantly lied. He gave positive examples of making changes that benefit people, and that make sense. You added the negative cases, Trudeau never said anything like that, you are a liar.
I understand what your position is now, and you are correct. He did not say the actual words.. You are using the rob ford defense. Where rob ford says "I told you that I was not a crack addict, and I am not. I told you that I don't do crack, and I don't. I have only done crack that one time, so I did not lie when I answered the question...."

Hey I just realized that I found another similarity between you and Ford... both your names start with F, and they are 4 letter words.

I am not an expert in this area, but this make for interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language
 

slowandeasy

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China is not even remotely communist these days, FAST. Not since a couple of decades. It certainly isn't a democracy either, it's a one party state, but there isn't anything communist about it.
Oh my goodness.... Are you not one of the people trumpeting about Harper's hidden agenda???

I agree that China is not purely the "communist state" that it once was, if you believe for a minute that the
communist party, and the millions of people who were given power will relinquish it so easily, then I have a nice piece of
waterfront property to sell you in North Korea.

China is in a state of change, but if/when things start to go bad, lets see how they react, before we go talking nonsense.
 

slowandeasy

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Western society is both democratic AND individualist. China is non-democratic AND collectivist.

.
Have you been to China lately? This is not your grandma China. Military unisex clothing is no longer the fashion on the streets of China. Many chinese still talk about "family", but the communist systems failures have driven them to become even more individualistic than North American. The common good???? Almost non existent.

The very older generation grew up with those values, but the younger generation (say those in their late 40's and after) don't share those values.
 

blackrock13

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Jun 6, 2009
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http://jeanchretien.libertyca.net/html/0072.html

Mr. Castro acted as pallbearer at Mr. Trudeau's funeral because he and the former prime minister of Canada were friends. On a 1973 visit to Havana, Mr. Trudeau felt moved to shout "Viva Castro!" Returning to this country, he defended his gesture by saying it was just a customary greeting in Cuba, a bit like "good morning" in Canada. On this basis we might have expected him to shout "Heil Hitler!" in Nazi Germany.

Shouting "Viva Castro!" was by no means an aberration. Mr. Trudeau embraced Communist despots wherever he could find them. On his four visits to China between 1960 and 1979, he continually played the role of appeaser and apologist, first to Mao Zedong, and later to his heirs. In 1973, he defended Mao's policies in Canada's Parliament, oblivious to (or uncaring about) the fact that he was seeking accommodation with a system responsible for the deaths of some 80 million people. In 1981, Mr. Trudeau expressed sympathy for Poland's General Wojciech Jaruzelski. This was after the notorious general in his trademark pink Neophane glasses banned Solidarity and jailed or sent into hiding its leaders, including Lech Walesa. In 1983, Mr. Trudeau argued with some passion in Parliament that he simply "couldn't believe" the Soviets would knowingly destroy a commercial airliner. This was after the Kremlin finally admitted knowing that Korean Air Flight 007 was a passenger plane, and justified shooting it down along with its 269 passengers because it was "spying."


http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1000trudeau.htm

Of course you are the sort of person who would watch 5 pigs beat a blind cripple with down syndrome to death and assume the pigs are in the right so I really don't know why I bother. My guess is you will focus on the very high end 80 million figure and put your fingers in your ears and go la la la!
So saying Viva Castro when you are a guest of that country and government is a bad thing? Shame on him. Did he say it in Spanish? Did he have his fingers crossed? He was putting those around him at ease by the jester. A much better thing to do than spit in their eye.

Did Khrushchev and Kennedy Shaking Hands mean Kennedy were a closet Communist?

http://www.picturehistory.com/images/products/1/2/4/prod_12412.jpg

Considering that at the time Trudeau was PM communist governments controlled maybe a third of the worlds population, it would not be a good thing to thumb your nose at them while visiting.

You forgot to mention that Jimmy Carter and the Aga Khan were also pall bearers. Maybe it was chance for secret talks over cocktails in the back room on the church. Castro had to enter the church. I'm surprised he didn't burt into flames, being a communist. Perhaps he really wasn't?
 

fuji

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Have you been to China lately? This is not your grandma China. Military unisex clothing is no longer the fashion on the streets of China. Many chinese still talk about "family", but the communist systems failures have driven them to become even more individualistic than North American. The common good???? Almost non existent.

The very older generation grew up with those values, but the younger generation (say those in their late 40's and after) don't share those values.
Fred can confirm for you that a number of my posts this year have been made from China, I am there frequently. (He knows because I complain about how many chinacom mobile IP addresses are blocked by terb). The Chinese have certainly embraced capitalism but it is still a collectivist society. Children are still raised by their grandparents, and still look after their parents when they are elderly.

Successful people expect and are expected to use their influence for the benefit of others. Certainly China is a status oriented place, and those who are successful love to show it off, but China was like that always, long before communism. It is the same in Taiwan.

Here we are discussing what Chinese people expect from their government, and they expect the government to prioritize the interests of society at large over the interests of individuals. They support ripping down old dirty eyesore neighborhoods and replacing them with modem construction that they can show off to visiting foreigners. They don't care whether the residents of the eyesore agree.
 

blackrock13

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Jun 6, 2009
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Sigh.

Viva Castro much like Hail Hitler, masturbating with the little red book or what have you. These expressions have meaning. I cam bet you dollars to donuts that if Harper visited some surviving facist country and did their prefered varient of the straight armed salute or went Hazzah for Dbag you would be all over that.

I don't know about you, but I can be very civil with someone without giving them a gaint hug and saying how much they rock. That is what the Viva Castro thing is doing. Maybe in your world when you visit a friends home you go down on your knees and suck your hosts dick but most people don't have to go that far. I assocate with people who are odious to me, I manage to be very civil without having to say the equivilent of Viva X.


It sure isn't the same fucking thing as shaking hands. Shaking hands has all the meaning of a hello. Engaging in outword forms of a cult of personality is utterly NOT the same thing as a hand shake. I mean come on.

Also I think most people can find the happy medium ground between taking part in a cult of personality and spitting in their eye.
Oh and yes PET could at times be quite the jester.

As for your last point.
Right. So if I hang out with a Doctor Without Borders dude, and someone who volunteers at a homeless shelter it is cool to be friends with Al Bundy, Justin Beiber or Paul Bernardo. If he was not a sympathiser one would have to wonder why Castro was a pall bearer. It isn't as if Cuba is a major power and Castro isn't some big time force for humanitarian goodness or Chuck Norris.



Also
I'm surprised he didn't burt into flames, being a communist. Perhaps he really wasn't?

Oh yeah I forgot, you are an adult that believes in fairy tales. So cute.
You may be civil, but I doubt you're French. They are a huggie kissy kind of crowd at all levels and I know of what i speak first hand. Remember this was the guy that did a pirouette behind the Queen as a public demonstration how he felt about Royal protocols.

As I said about Castro being a pall bearer, half seriously, having Carter and Castro in such close proximity might be a way of showing the the US, if not the world, that the two polar sides could come together and not throw barbs at each other.

As for your last point I have hung out and worked along side MSF and along side volunteers here in TO, but I certainly wouldn't hang with Bundy, Beiber, and Bernardo. I hope you included Beiber to aid in your prepubescent alliteration, as he's certainly no psycho killer.

Fairy Tales? You've supposedly only been a member of TERB for a week. So what was you handle before you got banned?
 

Rockslinger

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Apr 24, 2005
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The Trudeau government's National Energy program (NEP) was very left wing. There's a reason why Ed Clark was called "Red Ed".
 

slowandeasy

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May 4, 2003
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So saying Viva Castro when you are a guest of that country and government is a bad thing? Shame on him. Did he say it in Spanish? Did he have his fingers crossed? He was putting those around him at ease by the jester. A much better thing to do than spit in their eye.

Did Khrushchev and Kennedy Shaking Hands mean Kennedy were a closet Communist?

http://www.picturehistory.com/images/products/1/2/4/prod_12412.jpg

Considering that at the time Trudeau was PM communist governments controlled maybe a third of the worlds population, it would not be a good thing to thumb your nose at them while visiting.

You forgot to mention that Jimmy Carter and the Aga Khan were also pall bearers. Maybe it was chance for secret talks over cocktails in the back room on the church. Castro had to enter the church. I'm surprised he didn't burt into flames, being a communist. Perhaps he really wasn't?
Please don't try to re-write things. Not sure if you are old enough to have lived those days. Trudeau was not a "communist sympathizer" but he was definitely known to be open to discussions, and he did feel some "camaraderie" with Fidel. In those days, that was enough to have you labelled a PINKO...
 
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