Toronto's $1 billion HELLHOLE

[SADVOCACY]

Have you heard about Toronto's $1 billion hellhole? It can be a literal death sentence for people awaiting trial, i.e. folks who are LEGALLY INNOCENT.

"One day late last November, unit B-2B of the Toronto South Detention Centre was on lockdown. During a lockdown, inmates are placed in pairs in seven-by-16-foot cells for 24 hours a day. The South, as it’s called, is a remand centre for men who are awaiting trial—in other words, they are legally innocent—yet lockdowns are commonplace. This particular one lasted for four days. During that time, the 30 or so inmates on the unit were allowed no access to fresh air, no TV or exercise, and showers and phone calls were limited. The cells reeked of body odour, and the pervading sound, for hours on end, was a mysterious, maddening hum—probably a function of the building’s shoddy acoustics—punctuated by inmates banging on the walls, begging to be let out."

There are a lot of problems with the prison system as it currently exists in Canada. People are charged with crimes, and if they don't make bail they have to wait in custody. It takes MONTHS until trial, meaning that legally innocent people are stuck behind bars for indefinite amounts of time. The miserable conditions can compel innocent people to admit guilt just to get out sooner. This can happen by way of plea deals and/or false confessions, with the lasting consequences and stigma associated with criminal convictions.

To avoid the purgatory of remand, an accused person must get bail. Here is a legal info soundbite (under 3 min) that provides an overview of the bail process. Please note that this resource is for informational purposes only, and does not constitute legal advice.

BAIL HEARINGS!!!!! This process determines the accused's fate, i.e. whether they will be in jail or out free before their trial.

SNEAK PEEK of COOL YOUR HEAD legal info soundbite : S1E1 - Bail Hearings (click here to listen now)

 

[bazokajoe]

Highly doubt you'll get any sympathy.

 

[HOLLYWOODG]

Another example of the Ontario Liberal government's gross incompetence. This prison was supposed to save money. Instead they will be paying through their nose in out of court settlements.

 

[shack]

Highly doubt you'll get any sympathy.

My dad always taught me to keep my nose clean. Not my problem.

 

[malata]

Have you heard about Toronto's $1 billion hellhole? It can be a literal death sentence for people awaiting trial, i.e. folks who are LEGALLY INNOCENT.

When stated as "legally innocent" does that mean 'innocent until proven guilty'?

 

[rhuarc29]

Highly doubt you'll get any sympathy.

Why not? As the OP says, some of these people are yet to proven guilty. Some of them will inevitably be proven innocent.
Even if they're all guilty, do they all deserve that kind of treatment?

 

[dirkd101]

Most people are arrested and waiting trial for a reason, not because of their innocence. The reasons they don't make bail are obvious to most, again, it has nothing to do with their innocence, but rather the fact that they are not a good risk or for reasons deemed by a judge to be held without bail. The fact that some of these people are found innocent and are turned loose into society isn't because they are indeed innocent of the charges, but rather a technicality in the law or because they were held to long before trial. So innocent they aren't.

 

[SADVOCACY]

The presumption of innocence = principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty.

As Canadians/residents, we are granted rights by the Constitution. For example, we have privacy rights that protect us from unreasonable search and seizure. Same goes for the right to liberty and security of the person. Without getting bogged down in the exceptions to the rules, the gist is that we are entitled to certain protections and freedoms.

EVERYONE is entitled to the legal presumption of innocence prior to conviction, including all of the associated procedural rights and freedoms. This is true regardless of an individual's factual guilt (i.e. whether or not they actually committed the crime), because denying rights arbitrarily erodes the system overall.

This isn't an issue of "bad people who do bad things deserve to go to bad places", although I understand why that is many people's gut reaction. Remember that we are talking about people who have yet to be convicted. Regardless of their prior record, or other circumstances that prevent them from getting bail, they have not been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Recall that criminality is often rooted in underlying issues such as poverty, homelessness, addiction, mental illness, and past history of abuse. Many of society's most vulnerable are caged up... out of sight, out of mind.

Individuals who are denied bail end up serving months or years before getting an opportunity to defend themselves in court. If you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, have the wrong record, in front of the wrong justice of the peace, and/or deal with the wrong prosecutor (or defence lawyer), you will be SOL. It's not uncommon for people to take guilty pleas for crimes they didn't commit just to get the hell out of jail.

Not looking for anyone's sympathy, just trying to spread knowledge about the bail process. But if you think this could never in a million years happen to you, the sad reality is that it happens all the time.

 

[SchlongConery]

My dad always taught me to keep my nose clean. Not my problem.

Until it is.

Although the vast majority of those in jail awaiting bail have likely, factually, committed a crime, there are more than you would think that have been wrongly accused etc.

 

[SchlongConery]

Most people are arrested and waiting trial for a reason, not because of their innocence. The reasons they don't make bail are obvious to most, again, it has nothing to do with their innocence, but rather the fact that they are not a good risk or for reasons deemed by a judge to be held without bail. The fact that some of these people are found innocent and are turned loose into society isn't because they are indeed innocent of the charges, but rather a technicality in the law or because they were held to long before trial. So innocent they aren't.

With due respect, your personal logic is fundamentally at odds with the law.

1. YOU and everyone else in Canada is presumed innocent of any crime until the point at which you are affirmatively convicted of being guilty of a specific offence.

2. If you are charged and the state does not prove your guilt and the court does not convict you, then you are not affirmatively determined to be innocent of committing that crime.

 

[SchlongConery]

I despise the criminals who commit so so many crimes on so many levels. So I am not defending nor supporting them in any way.

However, Canada is what it is because of our respect of the law and legal process. Jail conditions such as those in the new jail are inhumane and denying people a bail hearing because of government and civil service mismanagement is arguably worse on many levels in terms of civillized society.

But like C36, there is little political will to make changes that is in any way seen as being supportive of anything other than being extra harsh on people in jail.

 

[sshotrr]

The mistake by the lake . LOL

 

[Mr Deeds]

I can tell you from experience this is normal practice in jail, the Don was famous for that and the conditions were alot worse. The guards will use any excuse to lock down the range because its less work. The worse part is if your waiting for bail you have no access to a phone to talk to a lawyer and you cant even shower before court even after more than a week in lock down. Your treated as guilty from the time you get there

 

[rhuarc29]

Most people are arrested and waiting trial for a reason, not because of their innocence. The reasons they don't make bail are obvious to most, again, it has nothing to do with their innocence, but rather the fact that they are not a good risk or for reasons deemed by a judge to be held without bail. The fact that some of these people are found innocent and are turned loose into society isn't because they are indeed innocent of the charges, but rather a technicality in the law or because they were held to long before trial. So innocent they aren't.

I'm glad that we live in a society that mostly doesn't think the way you do. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a hallmark of Western justice for a reason.

 

[elwoodinontario]

Let's be honest here, it's not a herculean task to get bail in this province. Unless the cops catch you walking down the street holding your victims head in one hand and a bloody knife in the other, you'll have access to bail.

 

[SchlongConery]

Let's be honest here, it's not a herculean task to get bail in this province. Unless the cops catch you walking down the street holding your victims head in one hand and a bloody knife in the other, you'll have access to bail.

Actually, the whole point is that it is difficult to even get a meaningful bail hearing.

 

[Mr Deeds]

Actually, the whole point is that it is difficult to even get a meaningful bail hearing.

o
Actually everyone can get a bail hearing the problem is the cops and the crown very closely together so going for bail are getting it are two different things.
The other side of things is when your in custody for a long time most judges will give you two days to one on time served so if your in for a violent crime and sentenced to a year chances are your out in 2 to 3 months with time served. Then they're is Provence sponsored bail program where the the system that is prosecuting you becomes your sponsor. The whole justice system is completely fucked

 

[corrie fan]

I recall reading an article about this subject not that long ago. It stated that justices of the peace are fearful of granting bail and then the accused committing another crime while on bail. As a result many accused that are not a risk to society are held in jail unnecessarily until their trial. There have been reports about the detention centre in London where there are problems caused by overcrowding. Many of those locked up waiting for trial are charged with non violent crimes such as shop lifting.
I remember a report in the newspaper a few years ago about 2 men who were arrested on the same night in London. One was charged with spray painting graffiti, the other with a serious assault where the victim ended up in the hospital. The graffiti artist was set to jail and guy charged with assault was released on his own recognizance. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[TeeJay]

LEGALLY INNOCENT

Although not yet convicted they are hardly "legally innocent" (you seem to like this term and emphasize it several times)
Not even close to the same thing as presumption of innocence which is what we actually have in this country

I'd also point out people who are denied bail or have huge sums that noone is willing to pay tends to point towards guilty

 

[TeeJay]

The presumption of innocence = principle that one is considered innocent unless proven guilty.

As Canadians/residents, we are granted rights by the Constitution

*sighs* at another person who has presumably graduated high school with less than stellar results
No the Constitution has nothing to do with your presumption of innocence and furthermore does not grant you any of the rights you mistakenly attribute to it

You have confused our Constitution with our Charter of Rights & Freedoms