Toronto Garbage Strike Poll......

[fuji]

The point is if we are in tough economic times, which everyone agrees to, then how can you justify the councillors getting 3.4% increase a few months ago but the city workers were offered 0 by the city at the strike deadline.

I have two answers to this:

1. The councillors are politicians, and whatever the economics, they probably should have been a little smarter about this. It is bad optics, even if it is correct policy.

2. Fair market wage depends on what other people are making, if other councillors are making a lot more then our councillors are underpaid. If people with equivalent jobs to the garbage collectors make a lot less then ours are overpaid.

It is in fact my understanding that our councillors are badly undepaid compared to equivalent positions elsewhere, and that our garbage workers are grossly overpaid.

 

[JohnLarue]

And which one of your trained monkeys is gonna drive that big old trash truck down Yonge St. in the middle of the day without smashing into anything?

The one with the most seniority

 

[oldjones]

I have two answers to this:

1. The councillors are politicians, and whatever the economics, they probably should have been a little smarter about this. It is bad optics, even if it is correct policy.

2. Fair market wage depends on what other people are making, if other councillors are making a lot more then our councillors are underpaid. If people with equivalent jobs to the garbage collectors make a lot less then ours are overpaid.

It is in fact my understanding that our councillors are badly undepaid compared to equivalent positions elsewhere, and that our garbage workers are grossly overpaid.

In fact the Peel and other councillors were making more, as were the Peel cops, so ours were given percentage raises the city still won't put on the table for the workers so many whiners seem to think are essential.

Refusing to work unless there's a better offer is just a marketplace bargaining tool, like 'take it or leave it'. And the offer the City said it couldn't possibly make before the strike is now on the table. Have any of the force them back to work crowd even bothered to check what's the going rate anywhere but in their minds?

It's about three bucks an hour better than the private contractor pays in Etobicoke. Unless we're gonna have some Nazi Gestapo enforcing precisely the same rate on everyone—and what a bureaucracy that mechanism would need—that seems pretty much in the 'set by the marketplace' ballpark. Anyway, since "fair market wages depend on what other people are making", can we please have an end to the crap about how easy city garbagemen make their unjustly high wage.

But you sure are right on about the optics. Who'd athunk so many bad players would take the field all at once?

 

[tboy]

"fair market wages depend on what other people are making", can we please have an end to the crap about how easy city garbagemen make their unjustly high wage.

oh you so admit they have an unjustly high wage?

We'll stop harping on their unjustly high wages if you stop harping on how we need unions in today's workforce......

If you've followed my threads I agree totally with Fuji on how stupid the councillors were in giving themselves a raise while saying the city is broke and limiting non-union workers to no increase this year.

That was the dumbest move but even still, the voters will be even more stupid if they vote these councillors back in.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

1. The councillors are politicians, and whatever the economics, they probably should have been a little smarter about this. It is bad optics, even if it is correct policy.

Damn right, that's been my point all along, stupid, stupid move on behalf of the councillors, they're not even good politicians making such a dumb optics move. The councillors, including Miller, won't get my vote at the next election.

2. Fair market wage depends on what other people are making, if other councillors are making a lot more then our councillors are underpaid. If people with equivalent jobs to the garbage collectors make a lot less then ours are overpaid.

It is in fact my understanding that our councillors are badly undepaid compared to equivalent positions elsewhere, and that our garbage workers are grossly overpaid.

That tells me the Mississauga councillors and others are overpaid and in these tough economic times, their increase should not have happened, that's why Hazel didn't accept her increase and she has recently asked the workers to voluntaril give back their 3% increase.

Bottom line, there is too much hypocrosy and bad, bad judgements made the last several months by the elected officials.

 

[fuji]

What are you comparing to, do you know what councillors, garbage collectors and inside clerical workers are paid outside Toronto?

Toronto city councillors are paid much less than, say, Mississauga city councillors. However they're paid much more than city councillors in Hamilton or Oshawa. I guess it depends what city you want to compare them to.

For the GC's and clerical workers it would make more sense to compare with private sector wages for similar jobs inside Toronto. So, what do private, non-unionized garbage collectors in Toronto get paid?

 

[oldjones]

oh you so admit they have an unjustly high wage?

Don't be silly. That's sandbox nyanh-nyanh stuff.

We'll stop harping on their unjustly high wages if you stop harping on how we need unions in today's workforce......

How 'bout only starting up the harps when you have a fact or two for the chorus to sing. And while I agree we need unions, you're confusing my posts with other folk's; that's not neen my song.

If you've followed my threads I agree totally with Fuji on how stupid the councillors were in giving themselves a raise while saying the city is broke and limiting non-union workers to no increase this year.

That was the dumbest move but even still, the voters will be even more stupid if they vote these councillors back in.

Then we all three agree the councillors were dumb. But fuji actually said the councillor's wage, if it follows the marketplace norm, is not outta line, just bad optics And the City's wage for garbage collectors does as well, much as it seems to pain you guys. But then that too is optics.

 

[fuji]

Inflation is currently NEGATIVE. How can anybody justify a contract with a non-zero cost of living incrase?

As of today's news we are officially into DEFLATION.

 

[oldjones]

Toronto city councillors are paid much less than, say, Mississauga city councillors. However they're paid much more than city councillors in Hamilton or Oshawa. I guess it depends what city you want to compare them to.

The pay rise for city council was not generated by city council but by an outside study back in 2006 which set out a formula for city council pay rises that was meant to keep them from becoming political. In enacting the pay rise city council was applying that formula, as it does every year.

For the GC's and clerical workers it would make more sense to compare with private sector wages for similar jobs inside Toronto. So, what do private, non-unionized garbage collectors in Toronto get paid?

The figures for the private contractor in Etobicoke have been posted before. They pay about three bucks an hour less than the City. Still over twenty bucks.

I'd suggest Council modify their formula—not that it ever could be made non-political—to one based on the meanest, stingiest wage the City pays out. So we'd all know just how self-important they think they are, and as something of an incentive to be generous where it's needed.

 

[fuji]

The figures for the private contractor in Etobicoke have been posted before. They pay about three bucks an hour less than the City. Still over twenty bucks.

So that's one data point to base salaries on. My understanding is that private contractor, Turtle Island, was required by Etobicoke to pay union rates and hire unionized workers, though.

What are the non-union rates for similar work?

Are there private garbage collectors servicing condos or businesses and the like that employ a non-union workforce?

 

[someone]

So that's one data point to base salaries on. My understanding is that private contractor, Turtle Island, was required by Etobicoke to pay union rates and hire unionized workers, though.

What are the non-union rates for similar work?

Are there private garbage collectors servicing condos or businesses and the like that employ a non-union workforce?

One big problem with contracting out right now is that the private contractors are required to pay inflated wages. However, I am not sure about benefits. It is possible that there are still savings on benefits. Besides, when you get right down to it, there is no reason the city could not get rid of the rules they currently have requiring private contractors to pay inflated wages.

 

[blackrock13]

One big problem with contracting out right now is that the private contractors are required to pay inflated wages. However, I am not sure about benefits. It is possible that there are still savings on benefits. Besides, when you get right down to it, there is no reason the city could not get rid of the rules they currently have requiring private contractors to pay inflated wages.

Oh ya, I forgot that poison pill clause about having to pay any contractor 905 of the city rate. It applies now, but might not apply if new tenders go out or the contract lapses. It'll be interesting to watch.

 

[oldjones]

Oh ya, I forgot that poison pill clause about having to pay any contractor 905 of the city rate. It applies now, but might not apply if new tenders go out or the contract lapses. It'll be interesting to watch.

And clearly you're never going to do any actual research to find any more useful numbers.

 

[fuji]

One big problem with contracting out right now is that the private contractors are required to pay inflated wages.

Is that actually true at this moment? I thought those sorts of constraints expired when the contract expired. Did Toronto actually commit itself to covenants that would survive the expiration of the labour contract???

 

[someone]

Is that actually true at this moment? I thought those sorts of constraints expired when the contract expired. Did Toronto actually commit itself to covenants that would survive the expiration of the labour contract???

For your reading enjoyment (I also posted this link in on of the other Garbage threads):http://www.toronto.ca/fairwage/index.htm
I am not sure where garbage workers would fall but I am guessing that Labourers as a catch all would apply to them.

 

[blackrock13]

And clearly you're never going to do any actual research to find any more useful numbers.

Well today this 90% one works for me and I know its true because I was told by the city that I had to pay it for the reasons stated.

 

[blackrock13]

What I'm also getting from reports is that these EMS crew that were responding to the emergency call but were not in time may have been
'staging ' or waiting for police backup because of a 'perceived threat' at that location, although on site security, residents, and witnesses were not aware of any threat. Curiouser and curiouser. I am a big fan of EMS personnel but this doesn't smell right ( sorry for the pun)

 

[buckwheat1]

Vote

I'm against the municipal government and the strikers.

As for the citizens, I'm not sure if I support them either. They voted for the present government that really supports the unions.

The government should be about supporting the taxpayers with good service, not unions with ever-increasing outrageous demands and blackmail power.

Well who in the world were we going to vote for John Tory? He got hammered by over 30000 votes in the city, he then went on to get hammered in a provincial election and in the Toronto riding he ran in he lost by over I believe 5000 votes. He then thaught rural Ontario would like him so he ran in a bi-electon and he got hammered there, who wants this guy?

 

[fuji]

I don't want John Tory either, but I do want a mayor who is not a union puppet and who has enough balls to handle this situation properly. I am against both but I am only against the city because it has not been tough enough with the union.

What the mayor SHOULD have done:

1. Communicated to citizens on day one of the strike that this was going to be a long strike, that the city cannot afford to compromise on these issues

2. Described to citizens on day one of the strike the plans the city is drawing up for injunctions and replacement workers to minimize the disruption to citizens during the strike

3. Published the complete text of the offer on the city's website on day one, and mailed a copy, including highlights, to every city employee's home address

4. Informed the union that the city only plans to make new offers once every four months, and booked the next round of negotiations for October/November.

5. Made the city clerk available to the union between now and November should they choose to accept the city's offer at any time.

 

[buckwheat1]

October/Novemner

I don't want John Tory either, but I do want a mayor who is not a union puppet and who has enough balls to handle this situation properly. I am against both but I am only against the city because it has not been tough enough with the union.

What the mayor SHOULD have done:

1. Communicated to citizens on day one of the strike that this was going to be a long strike, that the city cannot afford to compromise on these issues

2. Described to citizens on day one of the strike the plans the city is drawing up for injunctions and replacement workers to minimize the disruption to citizens during the strike

3. Published the complete text of the offer on the city's website on day one, and mailed a copy, including highlights, to every city employee's home address

4. Informed the union that the city only plans to make new offers once every four months, and booked the next round of negotiations for October/November.

5. Made the city clerk available to the union between now and November should they choose to accept the city's offer at any time.

well to say now your going to meet in oct/nov when you starting meting in June in Bargining in bad faith cannot be done. The mayor or any employeer doesn't know how long it's going to be a strike that is. Knowone ever publishs the full test/offer in the press. If mailed to every employee 30000 plus you'd all scream postage costs to much.