Toronto Garbage Strike Poll......

[Mrbig1949]

He would be in far less trouble if he sided with CUPE

Agreed, the fact that he did not renew is membership a year or two ago, means nothing. Bush would still be a republican even if he let his membership lapse (assuming they have traditional party memberships in the American system). If Miller had ripped up his membership card, etc. it might be different but he made it clear he was not rejecting NDP philosophy.

Personally, I think Miller is in the same type of tough position that Rae was in. By being overly friendly to the preferences of NDP supporters initially he pissed of the general public. Now that he cannot give his traditional supporters everything they want (e.g. the current strike) he is also going to lose many of them. I really think his only hope of winning again is for his opposition to really split the vote. However, I fully admit that in recent years Canadian politics has been very hard to predict so I could very well be wrong. Nonetheless, I will be surprised if he is reelected.

Imagine if Miller had given CUPE 3% and status quo on the rest. It would be a one day wonder in the press and they would move on. Now he is in serious shit which all left of centre types end up in when they piss on their friends shoes.

No social contract we may still be saying Premier Rae.

The core labour-left vote prefers their old enemy like Lastman to a traitor like Miller or Rae.

 

[fuji]

Imagine if Miller had given CUPE 3% and status quo on the rest.

Inflation is running WAAAAAY less than 3% so why would we want to give these guys raises? NONE of them should be getting ANYTHING near 3%.

That would mean the city is a pushover employer that can be walked on and abused by the union any time it feels like getting an undeserved reward.

I would much rather suffer with them being out until the spring and teach them an expensive lesson about being reasonable and making ridiculous demands.

The city will get the union it deserves. If the city is tough, the union will have some fucking respect and play fair. If the city continues along with its reputation for being a pussy pushover then the union will continue with garbage strikes and ridiculous demands every time a contract is due.

Unions have no respect for a pushover employer and become entirely abusive, the way CUPE is abusing the city now. Got to be taught a lesson. A long hard lock-out now and then has a way of focussing the union mind.

 

[blackrock13]

Imagine if Miller had given CUPE 3% and status quo on the rest. It would be a one day wonder in the press and they would move on. Now he is in serious shit which all left of centre types end up in when they piss on their friends shoes.

No social contract we may still be saying Premier Rae.

The core labour-left vote prefers their old enemy like Lastman to a traitor like Miller or Rae.

...... and imagine if I won 6/49, I wouldn't care.

The offer wasn't accepted so it a mute point. At least someone said enough is enough and here we are.

Lik I said earlier, anyone that doesn't kowtow to the union movement with blind obedience are called traitors.

 

[someone]

Imagine if Miller had given CUPE 3% and status quo on the rest. It would be a one day wonder in the press and they would move on. Now he is in serious shit which all left of centre types end up in when they piss on their friends shoes.

No social contract we may still be saying Premier Rae.

The core labour-left vote prefers their old enemy like Lastman to a traitor like Miller or Rae.

I’m not sure about that. I don’t want to hunt down the source but I was reading something recently that suggests the strike my have stopped the drop in Miller’s popularity. I strongly suspect that this is likely a temporary effect similar to the way support of national leaders initially increases when I country goes to war. However, whether or not I am wrong about it being a temporary effect, he was already in trouble. The fact that the city’s financial situation would have continued to get worse, would not have helped him.

Lik I said earlier, anyone that doesn't kowtow to the union movement with blind obedience are called traitors.

I think that an interesting contrast to your point is that I have not heard any conservatives really call Harper a traitor despite the fact the last federal budget went completely against their principles. Many conservatives are unhappy, but I have not heard them go so far as to call him a traitor.

 

[JohnLarue]

The core labour-left vote prefers their old enemy like Lastman to a traitor like Miller or Rae.

Someone is automatically a traitor to unions when they finally have to deal with the economic realities, make the hard choices & determine that the left-wing nutjob policies are not feasible????

You guys would throw your own mother under a bus if she did not tow the union line.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Under the bus for sure

Someone is automatically a traitor to unions when they finally have to deal with the economic realities, make the hard choices & determine that the left-wing nutjob policies are not feasible????

You guys would throw your own mother under a bus if she did not tow the union line.

It makes absolutely no sense to principaled progressives to give cops, firefighters teachers etc 3% per year for 4 years over 12 % compounded and then crap on CUPE. Miller will be in Bob Rae territory soon attacked by the right up against a strong right winger like John Tory but the left will sit on their hands in the next election because Miller did not deliver enough.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

It makes absolutely no sense to principaled progressives to give cops, firefighters teachers etc 3% per year for 4 years over 12 % compounded and then crap on CUPE. Miller will be in Bob Rae territory soon attacked by the right up against a strong right winger like John Tory but the left will sit on their hands in the next election because Miller did not deliver enough.

Not to mention the city councillors gave themselves a 3.4% raise a few months ago, what a bunch of hypocrites. The average salary for them is about $100,000 and they vote themselves a friggin raise, but to the little guy in CUPE, average of about $30,000 or so, they offered them 0 % initially, and now a staggering 1% in year 1 and 2, how generous of those fuckers. I can't stand the bastards.

And no, I'm not a CUPE worker, I can't stand fat cat politicians who shit on the little guys all the time.

 

[JohnLarue]

It makes absolutely no sense to principaled progressives to give cops, firefighters teachers etc 3% per year for 4 years over 12 % compounded and then crap on CUPE. Miller will be in Bob Rae territory soon attacked by the right up against a strong right winger like John Tory but the left will sit on their hands in the next election because Miller did not deliver enough.

1. I agree that it makes no sense to give those types of raises period.
2. Now is the time to push back against whichever contract is up for re-negotiation. It just so happens to be CUPE. The others will get their change to return so excess in the future
3. CUPE was foolish enough to isolate themselves by striking during the deepest recession in seventy years.
4. The politics of this stink worse than the stench from the garbage. I am not so naive to believe that politicians do not make policy decisions without considering their own fate first.

Lets hope Millar is not a 100% union stooge & recognizes he also has his own sense or right and wrong. Banking sick days is wrong

 

[JohnLarue]

Not to mention the city councillors gave themselves a 3.4% raise a few months ago, what a bunch of hypocrites. The average salary for them is about $100,000 and they vote themselves a friggin raise, but to the little guy in CUPE, average of about $30,000 or so, they offered them 0 % initially, and now a staggering 1% in year 1 and 2, how generous of those fuckers. I can't stand the bastards.

And no, I'm not a CUPE worker, I can't stand fat cat politicians who shit on the little guys all the time.

What about 20,000 little guys taking a collective dump all over the taxpayer.

Your mistaken if you think the average salary is $30,000..... Much higher + a ton of benefits the average guy does not have

 

[Mia.Colpa]

Your mistaken if you think the average salary is $30,000..... Much higher + a ton of benefits the average guy does not have

So what do you think the average salary is for the average garbage collector and office clerk??? I'm aware those employees with longer tenure make $50k plus, but the entry level is in the $20's, so I just took an average low figure. Use $40k if you wish, still a lot less than the $100k the average councillors make. I'm aware of the benefits that CUPE has is worth a lot and ontop of their salary, but the asshole councillors also get the same benefits, actually they get more, and also all the other city workers have better benefits, ie. police, firemen, etc.

Don't just compare CUPE to the average guy, also compare them to other city workers that have same or better benefits.

 

[JohnLarue]

So what do you think the average salary is for the average garbage collector and office clerk??? I'm aware those employees with longer tenure make $50k plus, but the entry level is in the $20's, so I just took an average low figure. Use $40k if you wish, still a lot less than the $100k the average councillors make. I'm aware of the benefits that CUPE has is worth a lot and ontop of their salary, but the asshole councillors also get the same benefits, actually they get more, and also all the other city workers have better benefits, ie. police, firemen, etc.

Don't just compare CUPE to the average guy, also compare them to other city workers that have same or better benefits.

It is the average who pays their wages / benefits with his taxes, so he is the correct comparison.
Any public compensation excess over the average compensation for all tax payers in Toronto represents an inequitable transfer of wealth
The asshole councilors (as you call them) are probably over compensated as well.

But a) we can vote those assholes out
b) those asshole are not on strike
c) those assholes are not making the taxpayer live in filth

There is an additional consideration wrt the skills that a councilor may bring to the table. Any special skills the Garbage Collectors provide in exchange for excess compensation

Lets deal with one set of assholes at a time.
Right now it is the striking garbage collectors

 

[blackrock13]

Well said JL.

 

[tboy]

As what JL said: councillors (and I too feel they are overpaid) and inside workers may bring skill sets to the table that GCs don't. As I have said repeatedly: a trained monkey can pick up garbage bags and put them into the back of a truck. Whether they do a good job or not would YOU vote in a highschool dropout whose previous job experience was a dishwasher at a greasy spoon?

Well, one could argue that the mayor and councillors are making us live in filth by not getting rid of the union stranglehold long ago. You could also argue that if they hadn't voted themselves an increase, they might have the money to pay the union's demands. But that wouldn't make it right.

As for the argument that fire and police got the benefit, anyone who can't see the difference between a policeman or fireman and a trained monkey ought to jump off the highest bridge because they are too stupid to even talk to.......

Funny: our poll is just about equal to the one city tv did on the street last week (they showed 81% was for the city).

 

[fuji]

Comparing the GC's to councillors is retarded. If that kind of logic worked I should be hopping mad that I am paid less than the CEO of the company I work for.

Pay is commensurate with responsibility.

Compare the GC's with people in the private sector who do the same or similar job.

 

[blackrock13]

Comparing the GC's to councillors is retarded. If that kind of logic worked I should be hopping mad that I am paid less than the CEO of the company I work for.

Pay is commensurate with responsibility.

Compare the GC's with people in the private sector who do the same or similar job.

The councillors aren't retards, they're politicians. There is a small difference.

 

[Egor]

... As I have said repeatedly: a trained monkey can pick up garbage bags and put them into the back of a truck.

And which one of your trained monkeys is gonna drive that big old trash truck down Yonge St. in the middle of the day without smashing into anything?

 

[fuji]

I noticed today that in my area and in much of downtown a lot of the trash cans on the street have been cleaned up and there are now garbage bags and waste bins appearing on the street, all being looked after by local good samaritans.

The bad smells are gone and the streets are pleasant.

Maybe we don't need these guys. Let them rot on strike.

 

[blackrock13]

And which one of your trained monkeys is gonna drive that big old trash truck down Yonge St. in the middle of the day without smashing into anything?

Ya, but now half the crew works for bananas, a major saving.

 

[tboy]

And which one of your trained monkeys is gonna drive that big old trash truck down Yonge St. in the middle of the day without smashing into anything?

We can keep the ones we have now heheheheh.......

 

[Mia.Colpa]

Comparing the GC's to councillors is retarded. If that kind of logic worked I should be hopping mad that I am paid less than the CEO of the company I work for.

You missed the point. No one is saying councillors should get paid the same as city workers.

The point is if we are in tough economic times, which everyone agrees to, then how can you justify the councillors getting 3.4% increase a few months ago but the city workers were offered 0 by the city at the strike deadline. Is it ok to give increases to the well paid and no increases to the lower paid in these times? I would suggest to you all get nothing. This stinks to me, it's like AIG and all those Wall street fat cats who recently were getting huge bonuses while the company was losing big and they were firing thousands of workers. The public was furious, things changed quickly.

Councillors should not have accepted the increase and set the example, we should be furious at these hypocrites.