Discreet Dolls

Titanic Submersible

Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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I don’t think this was a DEI issue. I think Rush wanted to spin it that way to his clients and investors; it seems more likely to me that he wanted younger, less experienced, more malleable staff who would not challenge his design ideas, do what they’re told, and not say No to him.
Which inspirational DEI person got hire go to video time 1:36.. noted 1 young female Tit Tok got hired quoted in the video . And also at video time 2:27 # oceangate women (5 women hired) …company tweeting celebrating the diversity hired data analysis, programer, etc..



 
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oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Because Mr Rush used an inappropriate material for constructing the pressure hull.

As I posted above, composite carbon fiber has tensile strength ( I.e. being good for airplane bodies) but has poor compression strength characteristics. Any mechanical engineer knows that.
Carbon fiber composite is brittle whereas metal and alloys
are ductile. Metal surface could deform when it succumbs
to pressure whereas brittle surface of equal strength would
implode. I have had glass cup that cracked into pieces all of a
sudden without showing any advanced signs of deterioration
of material having been used for hot and cold drinks.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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....and yet, OceanGate produced an unsafe vehicle that ultimately resulted in a catastrophic failure because they didn't understand the design defects. If this domain really is so simple and easy to master, what happened to Titan? The guys working on the initiative weren't experts but they weren't chimps either...
Greed, probably.
Carbon fibre is lighter, so you can make it bigger and have more passengers - that means more money.
Long term testing of a new material and design approach means not bringing passengers - that means less money.
 
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massman

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Sep 8, 2001
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Which inspirational DEI person got hire go to video time 1:36.. noted 1 young female Tit Tok got hired quoted in the video . And also at video time 2:27 # oceangate women (5 women hired) …company tweeting celebrating the diversity hired data analysis, programer, etc..



🤦‍♂️
 

The Oracle

Pronouns: Who/Cares
Mar 8, 2004
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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
Which inspirational DEI person got hire go to video time 1:36.. noted 1 young female Tit Tok got hired quoted in the video . And also at video time 2:27 # oceangate women (5 women hired) …company tweeting celebrating the diversity hired data analysis, programer, etc..



Yikes.....
 

PeteOsborne

Kingston recon
Feb 12, 2020
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kingston
The sub that imploded was on what was called mission 5.
Here is a video from mission 3 by a Youtuber I follow, a diver caled DALLMYD.
It shows some of the external testing and some of the people lost on mission 5.
Mission 3 and 4 apparently dodn't dive to Titanic because of weather conditions.
Seems like there were a mulititude of problems pretrip as well.
Also shows a test dive to 3,000 feet from inside the sub
.
 

dirtyharry555

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Feb 7, 2011
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Which inspirational DEI person got hire go to video time 1:36.. noted 1 young female Tit Tok got hired quoted in the video . And also at video time 2:27 # oceangate women (5 women hired) …company tweeting celebrating the diversity hired data analysis, programer, etc..

That's scary.

If I'm going into a vessel like that I want to ensure that all the engineers that created it are using the best materials and that they're the best engineers in the field (which would mean 100% male).

Going woke for brownie points in do-or-die scenarios has a steep price. These folks were doomed.
 
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dirtyharry555

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You wouldn't have info on all that because you are just buying a ticket. But I wouldn't even if I had the money, buy a ticket for a trip like this, before I have seen 100s of reviews at the very least so I know this is tried and tested.

PS: Your requirement that all engineers be male is just silly. There are female engineers and employees possibly creating a lot of things you use on a daily basis. No reason to insert something sexist when talking about a tragedy. What is the deal with you and Resetset being angry with women all the time?
Female engineers are terrific and I applaud anything they're creating for society.

However, in a do-or-die with no backup option scenario, I'd opt for the best engineers. That increases the probability that all the engineers on the project would be male. I understand that this doesn't gel with the "we are all equal" sentiment but in reality it shouldn't be a controversial statement.

The best singers, dancers, songwriters, philosophers, musicians, builders, athletes, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, tradesmen, chefs, fashion designers, business moguls, hunters, pilots, writers, leaders, inventors, programmers, are male. It's a man world.
 
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dirtyharry555

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That is true so far. But it is because women weren't allowed to excel in those fields for a long time, which is why it is male dominated. This will change in the future. For example, I am a consultant and the client I work for, the entire leadership team and middle management is female (I do also think those women selectively hire other women which is why it is all female, but that is another debate).
Time will tell.

But I'd stack a team of top tier male engineers against your team of top tier female engineers any day of the year.
 
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Darts

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Jan 15, 2017
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(I do also think those women selectively hire other women which is why it is all female, but that is another debate).
I once, briefly, reported to a female boss. All her direct reports were male.
 

xmontrealer

(he/him/it)
May 23, 2005
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I agree in principle that vessels that carry civilians should be government regulated. The issue of course is that the sub exists in a grey area where it's unclear who has jurisdiction over it because it operates in international waters. I am also not sure if regulating Ocean Gate would have changed anything. A well connected and wealthly person has the ability to go with another company that isn't government certified.

I think James Cameron claimed that the industry has never had disaster like this in it's history. That's an excellent track record especially if there hasn't been any regulation thus far. So I don't see how more regulation is going to improve that statistic.

On the other hand, I am not sure how the government can regulate experimental vessels. By definition an experimental vessel isn't regulated. The only way to test material limits and vessel design is to put people at risk. We can certainly reduce the risk by doing lots of virtual and un-manned tests, but someone will have to risk their life at some point. I don't think we should get government involved in that until it goes mainstream.
I heard on NBC news last night that Canadian authorities are looking into why their standards are not as stringent as the US, and allowed a Canadian ship to take the Titan out to sea for it's mission.

Apparently under US laws or policies the Titan did not meet the minimum safety standards that would have allowed a US ship to do that job...
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
........................
If I'm going into a vessel like that I want to ensure that all the engineers that created it are using the best materials and that they're the best engineers in the field (which would mean 100% male).
.....................................
They could have used the best materials and still be doomed.
They might have used the most state-of-the-art carbon fiber
composite but it is the *wrong* type of material to build the
hull. For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
 
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oil&gas

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Ghawar
For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
You might have heard about how awful the pressure the sub
is subject to. Someone said it is like every square inch of the
sub's surface is hit by a bullet. Think about what the best protection
against bullets in WWII was. German Tiger tanks are impervious
to the allies' anti-tank guns. Tiger's armor was only about 100 mm
(4 inches) thick. Steel rules. I would not worry about visiting the
bottom in Mariana Trench in a pressure chamber enclosed by
7 inch steel.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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They could have used the best materials and still be doomed.
They might have used the most state-of-the-art carbon fiber
composite but it is the *wrong* type of material to build the
hull. For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
It is a matter of tensile strength vs compression strength.
 
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oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Article written by a guy in the company who sold to Ocean Gate
the composite material to build the sub. If the dead crew had read
and believed what was said in the article then they might have
been scammed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Composite submersibles: Under pressure in deep, deep waters
Published 5/10/2017
Jeff Sloan

Even as massive amounts of money, energy and attention are being paid to the development of privately funded launch and delivery systems for space exploration — and the application of composites therein — an environment much closer to home is, despite its proximity, as remote and difficult in its own way to access and study.

At an average depth of about 3,810m, with a maximum depth, at Challenger Deep in the Pacific, of 10,916m, the world’s oceans offer a formidable challenge to explorers. Scientists, marine biologists or oil and gas engineers and others who would dive to such depths require a vessel that can withstand deepsea water pressure that, at the deepest point (almost 11,000m), is a massive 5,551 psi or 378 atmospheres.

Such vessels, called submersibles, offer capacity for three to five occupants, can explore depths from 1,200m to 6,500m, provide a viewing porthole or portholes, and are equipped with lighting systems and cameras. Conventional submersibles feature steel, aluminum or titanium hulls. Metallic hulls, however, because they are not buoyant in designs for depths of more than 2,000m, present challenges when it comes to managing ballast for ascent and descent. In particular, metal-hulled craft require the use of syntactic foam attached to the outside of the craft to achieve neutral buoyancy.

In 2014, submersibles manufacturer OceanGate Inc. (Seattle, WA, US) was coming off the successful launch of Cyclops 1, its steel-hulled, five-person craft, rated for underwater exploration to a depth of 500m. The company was set to embark on development of Cyclops 2, a five-person research-class submersible, designed for a maximum depth of 4,000m.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior. So, for Cyclops 2 OceanGate decided to avoid the metallic hull altogether
and began a search for a manufacturer that could help it develop a composite hull.

It is believed that the first time carbon fiber composites were applied to the hull of a deep-diving, manned submersible was for the one-person DeepFlight Challenger, commissioned by adventurist Steve Fossett in 2000 for a dive to the bottom of Challenger Deep (see Deepsea submersible incorporates composite pressure capsule). Designed and built by famed marine engineer and submersible designer Graham Hawkes, a principal at the time of Hawkes Ocean Technologies (Point Richmond, CA, US), it featured a cylindrical carbon fiber/epoxy composite hull with 6-inch-thick walls. It was nearing completion in 2007 when Fossett was killed in a light-aircraft crash. The Challenger was subsequently sold, and has yet to be fully tested or deployed in a deepsea dive. Spencer Composites Inc. (Sacramento, CA, US), a designer/manufacturer of composite parts and structures for a variety of end-markets, had designed and fabricated the DeepFlight Challenger’s hull.

“I knew of the submersible Graham Hawkes designed for Steve Fossett,” says OceanGate’s Rush. “And I knew Spencer Composites manufactured that cylinder.”

Spencer Composites’ president Brian Spencer signed a contract with OceanGate for the Cyclops 2 hull in early January 2017 and was presented with very basic — but challenging — performance parameters: Length, 2,540 mm; outside diameter, 1,676 mm; service pressure, 6,600 psi; pressure safety factor, 2.25. “They basically said, ‘This is the pressure we have to meet, this is the factor of safety, this is the basic envelope. Go design and build it,’” Spencer reports. And he was given six weeks in which to do it.
......................................
Cyclops 2 will enter the water for the first time in November of this year, followed by a deep-dive test in early 2018. If that goes well, its first mission, in May 2018 in the North Atlantic, will be a descent to the wreckage of the Titanic, which sits 3,688m under the surface. The goal? Capture high-definition still and video images of the Titanic, and gather sonar and laser measurements of the ship and the ship’s debris.

After the Titanic mission, Cyclops 2 will be off on a variety of other missions that, says Rush, will keep the craft busy for the rest of 2018. OceanGate, he says, will build at least four Cyclops 2 submersibles, and as many as 20, depending on demand. Rush says Cyclops 3, 4 and 5 are already on the drawing board, will target depths of 6,000m and likely will feature carbon fiber composite hulls.

 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
It is a matter of tensile strength vs compression strength.
I don't know if that has anything to do with tensile
strength. The carbon fiber shell could have developed
internal cracks on repeated descent to ocean bottoms.
Remember it is more brittle than ductile.
 
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