Tipping: why is 10% not perfectly adequate?

[burt-oh-my!]

You're right. Sorry to ask you to do do a long expose and research....

So you've researched what a server makes? I think you're using the word 'research' in place of 'infer'.

However, I'd like to do an expose on your job. What is it that you do and make?

Sigh, so many irrelevancies.

Where did I say I had researched what servers make? why don't people just CAREFULLY read what others have written, instead of putting words in others mouths?

My 'research' on what a server makes consists of the math I presented in earlier posts as well as the input of gcostanza, who apparently was/is a server. I invite others to provide their numbers as well. Do you have different numbers? What don't you understand about the fact that I was trying to get input on what those numbers should be?

As for the "what do you make" comment - just another example of people making the Tu Quoque logical fallacy:


Tu quoque (pronounced /tjuːˈkwoʊkwɛ/ [1]), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a kind of logical fallacy. It is a Latin term for "you, too" or "you, also". A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's viewpoint on an issue on the argument that the person is inconsistent in that very thing.[2] It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[3]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Illegitimate use
o 1.1 You-too version
+ 1.1.1 Legal aspects
o 1.2 Inconsistency version
* 2 Legitimate use
* 3 See also
* 4 References

[edit] Illegitimate use

In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument.
[edit] You-too version

This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.

Examples:

* :"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel."

* Person 1: It should be illegal to make clothing out of animals.
* Person 2: But, you are wearing a leather jacket.

* Person 1: Never smoke cigarettes. It is a terrible addiction.
* Person 2: I just saw you smoking a few minutes ago.

 

[Toke]

Sigh, so many irrelevancies.

Where did I say I had researched what servers make? why don't people just CAREFULLY read what others have written, instead of putting words in others mouths?

My 'research' on what a server makes consists of the math I presented in earlier posts as well as the input of gcostanza, who apparently was/is a server. I invite others to provide their numbers as well. Do you have different numbers? What don't you understand about the fact that I was trying to get input on what those numbers should be?

As for the "what do you make" comment - just another example of people making the Tu Quoque logical fallacy:


Tu quoque (pronounced /tjuːˈkwoʊkwɛ/ [1]), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a kind of logical fallacy. It is a Latin term for "you, too" or "you, also". A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's viewpoint on an issue on the argument that the person is inconsistent in that very thing.[2] It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[3]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Illegitimate use
o 1.1 You-too version
+ 1.1.1 Legal aspects
o 1.2 Inconsistency version
* 2 Legitimate use
* 3 See also
* 4 References

[edit] Illegitimate use

In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument.
[edit] You-too version

This form of the argument is as follows:

A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.

Examples:

* :"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel."

* Person 1: It should be illegal to make clothing out of animals.
* Person 2: But, you are wearing a leather jacket.

* Person 1: Never smoke cigarettes. It is a terrible addiction.
* Person 2: I just saw you smoking a few minutes ago.

So there is 'fallacy' in my logic, but you plugging numbers into what 'she' should be tipped based on gcostanzas numbers is solid?
You invite others to share their numbers, but you won't share yours (BTW, yes, I am a server). I did, but edited it out, because I did not want anyone here thinking that my numbers represent what all servres make (I would think that my numbers are in the higher end of the spectrum).

Here are some things for you (and others) should consider when thinking about tipping a waiter (Not passing judgment, just food-for-thought).

1) When you go to a strip club, don't you have to buy drinks to stay? Don't you have to tip the waitress to get service (let alone make you look like 'a spender')?

2) When you go to an MP, what would happen if you decided to pay the $40 door fee and expect a rub-and-tug? Sure some have come to TERB to complain, but for the most part, their quips have fallen on deaf, if not offended, ears.

3) Here's a reverse. Many SPs advertise that, 'money is exchanged for time and anything which happens between two consenting adults...', yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm sure that many here pay no attention to the 'time' and 'consenting adults' part instead rightly believing that FS, amongst other services, will be available. If you paid for 'expected services' and did not recieve them, you'd be back on TERB in a flash to label the provided a theif and so on.

4) Go to your mechanic to get your brakes done. Tell them that you'll pay for the parts (or food in a restaurant) but not labour (the service). Don't be surprised when you pick your car you with the same brakes on and a box of parts in the trunk.

 

[gcostanza]

re: gcostanzas numbers:

So, assuming you average $200/hour in billing, lets split the difference on the 'house take' , make it 3.5%, so you are charged $7, if you make 15% in tips, thats $30, so we have $8.90 wage, less $7, plus $30 = $31.90

Wage $8.90
Tips: $30
Less: House $7

Take home = $31.90 per hour.

20% would take it to $41.90 per hour.

That is WILDLY over what I think a server should be paid, so I guess we just have a vast difference of opinion. I see this as a job requiring no education whatsoever, favouring good looking people. there are lots and lots of jobs requiring education and technical skills paying less.

According to this:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/City=Toronto/Hourly_Rate

nurses make about $30 per hour. Yes,I suppose they would get some benefits on top, but there is no way in hell I would consider a server to deserve even HALF of what a RN gets. Sorry, I don't consider the ability to smile and act nice comparable to:

RNs perform frequent patient evaluations, including monitoring and tracking vital signs, performing procedures such as IV placement, phlebotomy, and administering medications. Because the RN is much more regular contact with patients than are physicians, the RN is usually first to notice problems or raise concerns about patient progress.

RNs also develop the day-to-day nursing care plans both in hospital, and for care after discharge by families and visiting nurses.

Indeed, we have a difference of opinion.

I know what I did as a professional, and I was satisfactorily & fairly rewarded.

Nurses are underpaid, and overworked.

Where does it say that the prime qualities of a server are to smile, and act nice ?

While formal education, beyond the ability to read and write, may not be a requirement for the position, that does not mean just anyone can do the job. Qualities needed include a highly developed ability to multitask, an ability to study and retain information on food menus sometimes hundreds of items in length, the knowledge of wines (Wine lists at restaurants that I have worked at have sometimes been 300 bottles, and you need to know all of them). Most restaurants change their menus every 3 to 6 months.

Add to that, the ability to interact, and read guests' moods, to provide them with the dining experience they want that evening, and you're not exactly preforming unskilled, menial labour.

As far as a job that favours good looking people, all you're doing there is showing your ignorance.
No one would ever confuse me with George Clooney, or Brad Pitt.
In fact, if you want an actor to use as comparison, check out Jon Lovitz.

The vast majority of people want good service when they go to a restaurant, not eye candy.

Again, it's is the guest's choice as to whether to leave a tip at all, or what percentage they choose to give. I don't begrudge anyone that freedom. However, if you want good service in restaurants, and to have an enjoyable experience, you should hope that the front line staff are satisfied with the monetary rewards that the job provides. If not, you're going to be dealing with surly, miserable people.

You can stay home with your wife, or miserly, miserable self, and be bitter for 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of the average restaurant meal.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

So there is 'fallacy' in my logic, but you plugging numbers into what 'she' should be tipped based on gcostanzas numbers is solid?
You invite others to share their numbers, but you won't share yours (BTW, yes, I am a server).

Dude, I am INVITING OTHERS TO GIVE ME THEIR NUMBERS, BECAUSE I AM NOT A SERVER AND I DON"T HAVE THE NUMBERS MYSELF. YOU ARE FREE TO GIVE ME ALTERNATE NBUMBERS. I IN NO WAY REPRESENTING THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE VALID. But I am trying to introduce a little bit of REASONING into this process. So what are YOUR Numbers?

OK? Got it?



BUT I STILL THINK THAT MAYBE NUMBERS SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT! I mean, money is the subject, and money is measured in NUMBERS.

GC, I have read that men tip waitresses bgetter than waiters, so looks have to have someting to do with it. If I find the link I will post it.

Secondly, I dont want to interact with my server and have them guess my mood. I don't want any of that stuff. I want to interact with my fellow diners, not staff. Of course I want ot be pleasant etc, but it doesnt take much to be pleasant. You don't need to read anyone's mind, or perform any of these amazing psychological readings that apparently servers do on a regular basis. I guess I have always been oblivious to the psychoanalyzing going on from the moment I walked in.

Miserly self? Listen, I am not calling you greedy, so maybe you should be civil and not call me miserly just because I dont' comply with your demand to be paid $30 per hour for serving.

I was brought up in a religious background where tithing 10% of your wages was expected, and although I dont give 10% now I do give about 5 - 7% to charities, mainly to third world projects. THOSE people are hard done by - NOT servers getting 'only' 10% tips.

What you cal miserly I call not overpaying.

 

[djk]

I can't believe this thread is still going. I'm amazed at how passionate some people are when they're discussing someone else's job, or someone else's income. Kind of like those "what do you think an SP should get paid?" threads that never go anywhere. Where there is a market, there will be market inefficiencies, and where there are people engaged in such markets, they will exploit those inefficiencies wherever possible. If you spent half the time analyzing your own income and budget as you spend worrying about everyone else's, maybe you could improve own financial situation instead of just complaining about what the other guy makes.

1+

Well said, especially the last part. In life, the race is long and hard but it's only against yourself.

 

[Toke]

Dude, I am INVITING OTHERS TO GIVE ME THEIR NUMBERS, BECAUSE I AM NOT A SERVER AND I DON"T HAVE THE NUMBERS MYSELF. YOU ARE FREE TO GIVE ME ALTERNATE NBUMBERS. I IN NO WAY REPRESENTING THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE VALID. But I am trying to introduce a little bit of REASONING into this process. So what are YOUR Numbers?

OK? Got it?



BUT I STILL THINK THAT MAYBE NUMBERS SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT! I mean, money is the subject, and money is measured in NUMBERS.

GC, I have read that men tip waitresses bgetter than waiters, so looks have to have someting to do with it. If I find the link I will post it.

Secondly, I dont want to interact with my server and have them guess my mood. I don't want any of that stuff. I want to interact with my fellow diners, not staff. Of course I want ot be pleasant etc, but it doesnt take much to be pleasant. You don't need to read anyone's mind, or perform any of these amazing psychological readings that apparently servers do on a regular basis. I guess I have always been oblivious to the psychoanalyzing going on from the moment I walked in.

Miserly self? Listen, I am not calling you greedy, so maybe you should be civil and not call me miserly just because I dont' comply with your demand to be paid $30 per hour for serving.

I was brought up in a religious background where tithing 10% of your wages was expected, and although I dont give 10% now I do give about 5 - 7% to charities, mainly to third world projects. THOSE people are hard done by - NOT servers getting 'only' 10% tips.

What you cal miserly I call not overpaying.

Toke says:
Dude, I am INVITING OTHERS TO GIVE ME THEIR NUMBERS, BECAUSE I AM A SERVER AND I DON"T HAVE THE NUMBERS MYSELF. YOU ARE FREE TO GIVE ME ALTERNATE NBUMBERS. I IN NO WAY REPRESENTING THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE VALID. But I am trying to introduce a little bit of REASONING into this process. So what are YOUR Numbers?

 

[gcostanza]

Dude, I am INVITING OTHERS TO GIVE ME THEIR NUMBERS, BECAUSE I AM NOT A SERVER AND I DON"T HAVE THE NUMBERS MYSELF. YOU ARE FREE TO GIVE ME ALTERNATE NBUMBERS. I IN NO WAY REPRESENTING THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE VALID. But I am trying to introduce a little bit of REASONING into this process. So what are YOUR Numbers?

OK? Got it?



BUT I STILL THINK THAT MAYBE NUMBERS SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT! I mean, money is the subject, and money is measured in NUMBERS.

GC, I have read that men tip waitresses bgetter than waiters, so looks have to have someting to do with it. If I find the link I will post it.

Secondly, I dont want to interact with my server and have them guess my mood. I don't want any of that stuff. I want to interact with my fellow diners, not staff. Of course I want ot be pleasant etc, but it doesnt take much to be pleasant. You don't need to read anyone's mind, or perform any of these amazing psychological readings that apparently servers do on a regular basis. I guess I have always been oblivious to the psychoanalyzing going on from the moment I walked in.

Miserly self? Listen, I am not calling you greedy, so maybe you should be civil and not call me miserly just because I dont' comply with your demand to be paid $30 per hour for serving.

I was brought up in a religious background where tithing 10% of your wages was expected, and although I dont give 10% now I do give about 5 - 7% to charities, mainly to third world projects. THOSE people are hard done by - NOT servers getting 'only' 10% tips.

What you cal miserly I call not overpaying.

You yell in your post, yet you accuse me of not being civil ?

Hypocrite, thy name is burt-oh-my!

You have read, have you ? I guess we'll just have to take you at your word.

You don't want to interact with your server ?

How, pray tell, will you place your order ?

Where did I demand to be paid $30/hour ?

If it was traditional to give 10%, how do you come to the conclusion that it is okay for you to now give only 5% to 7%.
Yet, you have a problem with society coming to the conclusion that a standard tip should be 15% rather than 10%.

You proved right there that you are miserly, and a hypocrite.

I have stated at different points in this thread that any guest of mine was free to leave whatever they wished, that that is their right. I would not have done the job for much less than what I did earn at it.
Nor would a lot of the highly skilled (and in most cases, highly educated) co-workers that I was employed with.

As far as guessing a customer's mood, attitude, and goals for the evening, these things can help a server provide a more enjoyable experience for the guest.

For example, you and 3 other guys come into a bar/restaurant on Front Street in Toronto, at 5:30 p.m. on a Saturday night. Two of the guys have Leafs sweaters on, one guy has a Penguins hat, and you're wearing a Leafs cap and a Hockey Canada tee shirt. Before the server has even said hello, he's probably figured out that you guys are probably headed to the A.C.C. for the game. After saying hello, that would be the first thing I would talk about with you (plural). ''Going to the game, guys ? '' If the answer is yes, I know we're under a bit of a time constraint, as I would want to have you all looked after and billed by 630ish at the latest, so you have time to walk over to the arena by game time. If the answer is ''no'', then, I know we've got a little more time. Why is this important ? If you're going to the game, and your buddy Dave wants to order the 16 oz New York steak, Well Done, I might point him in a different direction on the menu, as that would take at least 30 minutes to cook, and then your dinner arrived at the table, you'd have to eat in a rush.

Another would be if you were at a restaurant near a movie theatre, it's part of the server's job to find out: a) IF you are going to a show, and b) what time, so that they can give you the best experience possible within your time constraints.

burt, just because you are ignorant of all the factors involved in a particular job, does not make that career choice any less valuable.

 

[blackrock13]

You yell in your post, yet you accuse me of not being civil ?

Hypocrite, thy name is burt-oh-my!

It's not yelling, he's hyperventilating.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

It's EMPHASIZING something, because clearly he is not paying enough attention to get it when I do otherwise. Is bold OK? what about exclamation marks? italics?

I never said I (INCAPS FOR EMPHASIS) I agreed with 10% as the correct amount, - what I said is I give 10 or 11%, and am wondering why if it was considered OK for 10% at one time, why not now etc etc. Again, you dont pay attention. Good grief, where did I say 5 - 7% was correct?

Obviously when I say interact I mean all sorts of chit chat etc. making up ridiculous statemetns like I

Demand $30? Yes, if you think you deserve 15%, and if the numbers that YOU GAVE ME are correct, then yes, it works out to about $30 per hour - therefore you are demanding (in the economic sense) $30 per hour. Please feel free to alter you rnumbers if you think differently.

LOL miserly - I guess you never consider ANYTHING overpriced then - its just that the non-buyers are miserly!

And no, if I dont know all the factors of another job of course it doesnt make that career choice any less valuable. (LIke I said that - there you go again making up all sorts of things that I didnt say). But it also doesnt mean I cant comment on it, nor does it mean automatically that a server wins any and every argument on that subject just because they happen to be a server.

 

[Toke]

You yell in your post, yet you accuse me of not being civil ?

Hypocrite, thy name is burt-oh-my!

You have read, have you ? I guess we'll just have to take you at your word.

You don't want to interact with your server ?

How, pray tell, will you place your order ?

Where did I demand to be paid $30/hour ?

If it was traditional to give 10%, how do you come to the conclusion that it is okay for you to now give only 5% to 7%.
Yet, you have a problem with society coming to the conclusion that a standard tip should be 15% rather than 10%.

You proved right there that you are miserly, and a hypocrite.

I have stated at different points in this thread that any guest of mine was free to leave whatever they wished, that that is their right. I would not have done the job for much less than what I did earn at it.
Nor would a lot of the highly skilled (and in most cases, highly educated) co-workers that I was employed with.

As far as guessing a customer's mood, attitude, and goals for the evening, these things can help a server provide a more enjoyable experience for the guest.

For example, you and 3 other guys come into a bar/restaurant on Front Street in Toronto, at 5:30 p.m. on a Saturday night. Two of the guys have Leafs sweaters on, one guy has a Penguins hat, and you're wearing a Leafs cap and a Hockey Canada tee shirt. Before the server has even said hello, he's probably figured out that you guys are probably headed to the A.C.C. for the game. After saying hello, that would be the first thing I would talk about with you (plural). ''Going to the game, guys ? '' If the answer is yes, I know we're under a bit of a time constraint, as I would want to have you all looked after and billed by 630ish at the latest, so you have time to walk over to the arena by game time. If the answer is ''no'', then, I know we've got a little more time. Why is this important ? If you're going to the game, and your buddy Dave wants to order the 16 oz New York steak, Well Done, I might point him in a different direction on the menu, as that would take at least 30 minutes to cook, and then your dinner arrived at the table, you'd have to eat in a rush.

Another would be if you were at a restaurant near a movie theatre, it's part of the server's job to find out: a) IF you are going to a show, and b) what time, so that they can give you the best experience possible within your time constraints.

burt, just because you are ignorant of all the factors involved in a particular job, does not make that career choice any less valuable.

Thank you gcostanza. Not once in this thread did I demand money. I simply reiterated 'custom' and reminded others that, in most establishments, the customer is free to leave what they want (including well below 10%) and the server can do little about it, but they are mandated a 'special wage'; below minimum. For those that want to leave 10 and/or below, unless you are no-fuss don't expect to be a well-served regular in most establishments.

 

[Master_Bates]

re: gcostanzas numbers:

So, assuming you average $200/hour in billing, lets split the difference on the 'house take' , make it 3.5%, so you are charged $7, if you make 15% in tips, thats $30, so we have $8.90 wage, less $7, plus $30 = $31.90

Wage $8.90
Tips: $30
Less: House $7

Take home = $31.90 per hour.

20% would take it to $41.90 per hour.

That is WILDLY over what I think a server should be paid, so I guess we just have a vast difference of opinion. I see this as a job requiring no education whatsoever, favouring good looking people. there are lots and lots of jobs requiring education and technical skills paying less.

While it may seem that servers could potentially make gawdy amounts of money, most servers start work before the rush and are there after. That is probably their peak $/hr, but certainly not an average throughout a shift in most cases. I spent 10+ years in the industry and I can tell you that tips will vary based on the weekday vs weekend, the weather, construction, season, etc. I had days where i only made $20, and others where I made $200+.

Don't forget that MANY (possibly even the majority) servers are students, trying to pay bills, tuition, rent. Serving jobs are ideal because of the flexible hours; evenings, weekends, overnights. I honestly believe that the industry greatly supports the education of youth. There are very few other jobs that any student would be able to hold down and pay bills with.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

Toke says:
Dude, I am INVITING OTHERS TO GIVE ME THEIR NUMBERS, BECAUSE I AM A SERVER AND I DON"T HAVE THE NUMBERS MYSELF. YOU ARE FREE TO GIVE ME ALTERNATE NBUMBERS. I IN NO WAY REPRESENTING THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE VALID. But I am trying to introduce a little bit of REASONING into this process. So what are YOUR Numbers?

How then can you say you are overpaid underpaid if you dont even know what the numbers are then?

"Gee, I think we are worth every penny we make. I don't actually have a clue what I make, but damn I'm worth it!"

 

[Toke]

How then can you say you are overpaid underpaid if you dont even know what the numbers are then?

"Gee, I think we are worth every penny we make. I don't actually have a clue what I make, but damn I'm worth it!"

Huh? I know what I make. I'm asking what you make.

But since you're so interested in what I make; it's about $30/hr, but I don't work 40hrs per week. Plug that into your 'equation' and let me know how overpaid I am. So what do you do and how much do you make???

 

[gcostanza]

It's EMPHASIZING something, because clearly he is not paying enough attention to get it when I do otherwise. Is bold OK? what about exclamation marks? italics?

I never said I (INCAPS FOR EMPHASIS) I agreed with 10% as the correct amount, - what I said is I give 10 or 11%, and am wondering why if it was considered OK for 10% at one time, why not now etc etc. Again, you dont pay attention. Good grief, where did I say 5 - 7% was correct?

Obviously when I say interact I mean all sorts of chit chat etc. making up ridiculous statemetns like I

Demand $30? Yes, if you think you deserve 15%, and if the numbers that YOU GAVE ME are correct, then yes, it works out to about $30 per hour - therefore you are demanding (in the economic sense) $30 per hour. Please feel free to alter you rnumbers if you think differently.

LOL miserly - I guess you never consider ANYTHING overpriced then - its just that the non-buyers are miserly!

Capital letters are coming known as yelling, on a chat board.

We have Bold, various punctuation marks, and Italics, for emphasis.

You stated that you tithed 5% to 7% now, rather than the customary 10% .

I stated approximately what I earned. In no way did I demand that income.
I would have made another career choice, had the income not been satisfactory.

Do I consider anything overpriced ? Not really. Things are priced at what the market will bear, moreso, they are sold at what the market will bear. Are the non-buyers miserly ? No, if most everyone is in agreement that something is not worth what is being asked for it.

Wages and values tend to find their own level. If skilled waiters/waitresses are in short supply, their value goes up. If land is in short supply, its value goes up. The converse is true as well. If right handed pitchers who can throw a breaking ball are in short supply, the limited number available will get paid more. If everyone could snap off a curve ball, the wage paid would be less.

I don't need to alter anything. What I have stated is truth.

 

[skidoo64]

I'm still pissed off at the HST.Don't get me going.

You've been paying the gst and pst at resturants all along anyway. The hst hasn't affected a resturant bill.

 

[Toke]

You've been paying the gst and pst at resturants all along anyway. The hst hasn't affected a resturant bill.

But in this thread, they make servers (and only servers) responsible for all that is wrong in the world of work. HST, unions, World War I (but not II), gas prices, and the economic downturn.

 

[burt-oh-my!]

I stated approximately what I earned. In no way did I demand that income.
h.

I disagree, you most certainly did demand it: I quote:


I would not have done the job for less than $28/hour .

When you say you would not of done the job for less that $28 an hour, in economic terms you are 'demanding' $28 per hour.

 

[Asterix]

I tip 10 or 11% for most meals, yet a lot of people seem to think that 15% is the minimum now. Yet I fail to see why I should pay say $5 for a $30 meal when the grand total time she spent serving me was at MOST 5 minutes. In fact the whole idea of tipping is annoying and silly, especially as we see it expanding into other areas.

If you work out what waitresses are getting on an hourly basis, it can be ridiculously high. and yes, I do know that the basic wage is low and they have to share, but waitresses can still earn $40 or more per hour. I find that over the top for a pretty low-skilled job.

What is most annoying though is how everyone moans and groans about low tipping of waitresses - yet we don't tip the staff at numerous other places who are alos earning low wages, like the person at the fast food joint for instance.

At a good restaurant with good service I'll always tip 20%. I figure it compensates that they have to put up with cheapskates such as youself.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Burt, you're arguing with a waiter. My 17 year old niece could replace him tomorrow. Tip what you feel like tipping, and save your passion for something that matters.

 

[Toke]

Burt, you're arguing with a waiter. My 17 year old niece could replace him tomorrow. Tip what you feel like tipping, and save your passion for something that matters.

Great. Maybe she replaces in your eyes.... Heck, get her in. gravy train is rearing to go.