The Great Debate

[Valcazar]

Oh fuck off with that nimrod, wannabe intellectual act.

He HAS no "policy" except to further his own sense of grandiosity.

I don't think that's entirely true.

Healthcare? His "great" plan? He's had NINE years to set out ANY policy and the ONLY thing he accomplished was to get Roe v. Wade overturned... ONLY to further his own interests by feeding his base. He couldn't even LEAD anything on COVID except division. Takes credit for a vaccine, yet fans the flames of the conspiricy theorists.

Repeal "Obamacare" and then let whatever the private market can get away with happen is his plan.
He "wins" over Obama.

Other than that, it is whatever anyone can convince him should be the new thing.
The fact the GOP was never able to come up with an idea they all agreed on isn't his fault as far as Trump is concerned.

Immigration? He managed to get a few hundred (at most) miles of fence built. Nothing else. No vision or ideas on how to deal with existing illegal immigrants or future ones. NOTHING except word salad at Rallies (his own jerk-off sessions) designed to dog whistle the inner racist iin his followers who longed for the days of (white) Leave it to Beaver. Except none of these mutts remember that the Italians, Irish, Catholics, Polish and other white immigrants were the target of anti-immigration then.

He's moved on from the wall plan.
Now it is is mass deportation.
A giant, bloody, police action on several million people that will require massive government expenditure, violence, and new and bigger prison/detention camps.

He hasn't laid out exactly how that would work, but you can't say it isn't a policy.

Taxes? Gave the RICHEST people a huge tax cut and NOTHING for the average Joe or family. NOTHING.

That's a policy.

CHYNA? Tarriffs? He doesn't understand that ALL that money is passed on and paid for by the American CONSUMER.

It's still a policy.
He's also been saying stuff about how Taiwan needs to pay for US defense and the US couldn't really protect it anyway.
Which at least implies a policy.

And NONE of that is meaningful "policy" to lead a government and country as complex as the United States. It is the largest, most complex and sophisticated government, economy and country in the world. Led by a con-artist TV celebrity pussy grabbing bald faced liar.

So, no, there is no "policy" to talk meaningfully about with Trump. Because his followers see and hear what they want to see and hear in his words.

I dunno, these all seem like policies for some definition of the term.

 

[Valcazar]

The Haitians are legal immigrants. He can't kick them out.

If he targets the Haitians, they will launch a slam dunk "denial of civil rights" mega-lawsuit that will make Jean Carroll and his other assinine legal capers look mild in comparison.

He can't touch the Haitians. He's fucked.

It's not like we're back in Nazi Germany and it's Hitler targeting the Jews. There's a little thing called the US Constitution.

Stephen Miller and company have made it clear for quite some time that legal immigrants should also be removed.

Sure, the violent police force won't get used on the Haitians first thing (even if Trump doesn't care about the legalities much) that's just because most are in Ohio on 18-month renewable visas.
All the administration needs to do is not renew them.

 

[silentkisser]

You seem to get a bit irritated by someone noting a simple fact (Crimea) that conflicts with your narrative. I don't blame Obama, Trump or Biden for Russian aggression one way or another. Russia was going to do what it wanted to do. I agree the invasion was timed to start after the Olympics. That was a short-term timing tactic. Strategically, oil prices surged in 2021 and Putin might have thought the world could not do without Russian oil. It certainly seems that Russia can find buyers.

I have my opinions about the Ukraine independent of what party is in the White House. Really I don't see a lot of objectivity on social media. I see more of the Biden is to blame or Trump is to blame narratives. I just don't see the war ending with a return to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders no matter who is President.

I don't know what to tell you. (That's my polite way of saying you can say whatever you want but I'm not sure there's a whole lot there.)

PS- You sound a bit like Beaver. You should get him started. He can bend time and events to fit any narrative you want.

I don't think I'm irritated, I'm just stating facts. Think of it at the time, back in 2014. Europe did not want to intervene, so the US was limited in its response to the annexation of Crimea. I only raise it as a point of contention that will certainly be on the docket during any eventual peace negotiations. Ukraine says Crimea is theres, and will not accept losing it. The same for their border territories that Russia has been meddling in for about a decade now.

 

[WyattEarp]

I don't think that's entirely true.



Repeal "Obamacare" and then let whatever the private market can get away with happen is his plan.
He "wins" over Obama.

Other than that, it is whatever anyone can convince him should be the new thing.
The fact the GOP was never able to come up with an idea they all agreed on isn't his fault as far as Trump is concerned.



He's moved on from the wall plan.
Now it is is mass deportation.
A giant, bloody, police action on several million people that will require massive government expenditure, violence, and new and bigger prison/detention camps.

He hasn't laid out exactly how that would work, but you can't say it isn't a policy.



That's a policy.



It's still a policy.
He's also been saying stuff about how Taiwan needs to pay for US defense and the US couldn't really protect it anyway.
Which at least implies a policy.



I dunno, these all seem like policies for some definition of the term.

It would seem that the new rules of political engagement is that if something is unpopular you simply change your position. It's not like Kamala isn't trying to find a path on some issues in real time. I'm almost certain she might say she won't ban fracking but the Federal agencies under her leadership will not be supportive at all.

Wasn't Kamala for Medicare for All? That doesn't seem to fly with people with private insurance. Trump (and Kamala) have merely run into the U.S. healthcare quagmire. People like their private insurance. The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers.

 

[Valcazar]

I would like to remind everyone that Trump is not a peace loving person. Sure, he pulled US troops out of Afghanistan (and fucked that dog pretty badly. NOTE - this is not to give Biden a pass for the chaotic withdrawal, but that certainly made it more challenging), but he escalated combat in many other ways, like the significant increase in drone strikes he allowed....with looser rules and regulations on what they could target.

"Trump is anti-war" is one of those delusions people cling to like a security blanket.

 

[Skoob]

I do not agree with that decision at all, nor the backlash. For me, I feel bad for the average Russian soldier. In the early days, they might have believed the propaganda and wanted to fight for their country....only to be led by idiots with terrible tactics and weapon systems that were not properly maintained....nor the logistics for a sustained assault. We hear that many did not want to be there, and they are sending prisoners as basically cannon fodder to the front lines. All in all, there is a human tragedy happening on that side as well. Now, I won't say that they aren't doing horrific things to Ukraine and its people. They are. Some willingly. And yes, the government (along with the French government) helped fund the doc.

And...I'm wondering why you think there would be a tax?

The tax comment was a joke because it appears that our governments are always looking for ways to rob us of more of our money under the guise of "it's for your own good".

re banning the film...it's more about the ones who apparently worry the most about something or someone infringing on their freedom, are the first to censor and cancel someone's else's perspective.

 

[squeezer]

nobody pulling strings on trump...Biden was running on "auto-pilot" his entire term...LOL...and now his proxy will do the same...dodging key questions is "winning"...LOL...but you still think she's great...was US better during Trumps term compared to Biden? economy and immigration? lefties are experts on sweeping everything under the rug...

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

 

[Valcazar]

It would seem that the new rules of political engagement is that if something is unpopular you simply change your position.

Yes and no.
On one level, that's always been the rules of engagement - as a representative, you respond to the people.
On the other, it is always a mix of your own judgment as well.

There is the absolute weather vane you sometimes see, but usually it is tacking in the political wind to get to somewhat the initial destination, even if the details change as you make compromises in light of a huge country with many opinions and multiple people with agendas and power that need to find consensus of a sort.

It's not like Kamala isn't trying to find a path on some issues in real time. I'm almost certain she might say she won't ban fracking but the Federal agencies under her leadership will not be supportive at all.

Which is pretty much what I would expect and has been the consensus Democratic position for quite some time.
A whole sale ban on most fossil fuels is impractical and unpopular.
So move the incentive structure slowly in the direction of more sustainable energy.

Pretty straightforward.

Wasn't Kamala for Medicare for All? That doesn't seem to fly with people with private insurance.

She was at some point and has backed off that position.
She is still in favor of better health insurance/coverage and more people having access.

As I used to point out endlessly to people, Medicare for All is not the only way to do that.
She hasn't changed position and now come out against greater health care for people or the elimination of government from the system or repealing the ACA.

Trump (and Kamala) have merely run into the U.S. healthcare quagmire. People like their private insurance. The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers.

Yes.
But Trump has also proposed no plan, and instead promised one for 9 years.
He tried to get the ACA repealed without a replacement plan in place.
What he has discussed more than in general waving terms is a return to a private system that everyone loathed.

Getting universal coverage in the countries it has happened in was NEVER easy because "The private insurers fight any real effort to reform healthcare. That's not even mentioning doctors and other healthcare providers." has been true for every country. Different countries solved that problem in different ways.

 

[Skoob]

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

Nothing was Biden's fault because he didn't know where he was or what year it is. The Dems did a great job of hiding him away to fool the public.
I'm surprised you aren't horrified by what they did before he "moved aside".

 

[squeezer]

Nothing was Biden's fault because he didn't know where he was or what year it is. The Dems did a great job of hiding him away to fool the public.
I'm surprised you aren't horrified by what they did before he "moved aside".

I will give you an article from Forbes that will bend over backwards to show the Right in a good light but even they can't sing the praise of Trump over Biden's record. Take your partisan-blinded goggles off and have a read but remember, Forbes skews towards your side.

Remember, INFLATION isn't any leader's fault coming out of the pandemic and wars outside of their control. Gas, groceries etc...would have all gone up had Trump the Stump won a second term.

How The Economy Really Fared Under Biden/Harris And Trump—From Jobs To Inflation (Final Update)

The final economic data is in ahead of the election—here's what the numbers say about the Trump and Biden/Harris economies.

www.forbes.com

 

[WyattEarp]

No, it was not, look at the stats and data, not the nonsense and bullshit. Inflation isn't Biden's fault, it's worldwide same way it wasn't Trump's fault Covid hit but he didn't manage it properly. Stop being a lemming and use your critical thinking skill to look through the nonsense and bullshit if you can.

Systemic inflation was a monetary phenomenon. The Fed printed money to accommodate Federal spending. The money supply charts don't lie. Inflation tightly correlates with the increase in the money. This was a worldwide phenomenon but not necessarily unavoidable.

The Biden Administration had a choice to slow down spending long after Covid and chose not to take this step. They also chose not to raise taxes which would have helped offset the inflationary effect of the additional spending.

I always try to ask the next question. Did any industrialized nations avoid high inflation the last three plus years? Japan is one. They however have been fighting deflation for several years. Interestingly, Switzerland avoided high inflation. You might say they're so small. However, I would argue if inflation was a systemic, global phenomenon a small country that must import quite a bit of its consumption would surely be affected.

What did the Swiss do differently than other countries? It's very simple. They kept their money supply under control and got their spending back to pre-Covid levels in 2022.

PS- I typically ignore China's data for being unreliable.

 

[WyattEarp]

I don't think I'm irritated, I'm just stating facts. Think of it at the time, back in 2014. Europe did not want to intervene, so the US was limited in its response to the annexation of Crimea. I only raise it as a point of contention that will certainly be on the docket during any eventual peace negotiations. Ukraine says Crimea is theres, and will not accept losing it. The same for their border territories that Russia has been meddling in for about a decade now.

I'm not disagreeing with facts. I'm disagreeing with the narrative that you shaped around the facts. Effective narratives are always built on some facts. That's what makes cable news commentators dangerous.

If people believe President Obama was tougher on Russia than Trump, that's fine but it is an opinion.

 

[bver_hunter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835363627328520215

Fake news. Tony West is Kamala Harris's Brother-in-Law!!

Tony West negotiated that $13 billion JPMorgan settlement. Here’s what he has to say about it

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/11/21/tony-west-negotiated-that-13-billion-jpmorgan-settlement-heres-what-he-has-to-say-about-it/

 

[WyattEarp]

he was at some point and has backed off that position.
She is still in favor of better health insurance/coverage and more people having access.

Kamala is for more affordable housing too. That's greatt!

Yes.
But Trump has also proposed no plan, and instead promised one for 9 years.
He tried to get the ACA repealed without a replacement plan in place.
What he has discussed more than in general waving terms is a return to a private system that everyone loathed.

The ACA is a lot of things. It's partly a welfare program. That doesn't make it bad. It's also an insurance mandate which on some level was necessary.

The ACA wasn't popular in 2016. It's gotten more popular. This is probably because a lot of people have just come to accept it and many of them aren't impacted by it directly. I know some self-employed people who don't like the program. They always had insurance, but now Obamacare dictates many aspects of their insurance.

I'm not saying the ACA is a bad program, but not everyone is/was happy with it.

As far as Trump not having a replacement plan in place, I think practically speaking it came down to there was no consensus in Congress on how to replace it. Unfortunately, our legislature is not designed to handle all the details of a large complex issue like healthcare.

 

[bver_hunter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835778062257922417

Bahahahahaha. Apologize to Trump? Really??

Since when has Trump really apologized for false allegations against Religious and Ethnic minorities, the Media, Those receiving threats at ballot counting offices, Women that he has assaulted, crimes that he committed etc?

 

[Skoob]

I will give you an article from Forbes that will bend over backwards to show the Right in a good light but even they can't sing the praise of Trump over Biden's record. Take your partisan-blinded goggles off and have a read but remember, Forbes skews towards your side.

Remember, INFLATION isn't any leader's fault coming out of the pandemic and wars outside of their control. Gas, groceries etc...would have all gone up had Trump the Stump won a second term.

How The Economy Really Fared Under Biden/Harris And Trump—From Jobs To Inflation (Final Update)

The final economic data is in ahead of the election—here's what the numbers say about the Trump and Biden/Harris economies.

www.forbes.com

You really don't have a leg to stand on in terms of credibility after trying to peddle misinformation about US soldier deaths being higher under Trump than Biden.
That aside, "would have, could have, should have"...doesn't sound like a good argument.

Fact is, if you remove wars, global economic factors, etc...then what are you really comparing or trying to say here?

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

Apparently we are all wrong and rump won the debate.
He said so himself.

I can't believe ABC gave Harris the questions, no reasonable presidential candidate could have expected questions on the economy or abortion.

"One person of extraordinary genius". lololol.

 

[bver_hunter]

 

[Skoob]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1835385498392547452

With the left controlling most major media outlets it's no surprise.

 

[bver_hunter]