The complexities of Sudan

[mandrill]

The Ottomans were also a colonial power. And no the Arabs did not love them. That is why you had Arab nationalist movements, who actually fought the Turks during WW 1. What does this have anything at all to do with the Brits taking over Palestine and other lands, after WW 1 and handing it to people from Europe? Nothing.

Genocide does not have to result in population decline. It is about causing deaths, with the intent to cause deaths - to put it simply. So you could kill only 2 or 3 people - but if the intent of killing the 2 or 3 people was to exterminate an ethnicity or even ethnically cleanse them from the region, it is genocide. That is per the genocide conventions definition of genocide.

So let me understand. 75 years of Israeli "genocide" of Palestinians leading to a massive population increase of Palestinians totally makes sense from your point of view?

And killing only 2 or 3 people if you say to yourself "Bang-bang! I'm really mean! I'm killing everybody!! Bang-bang-bang!" is actually "genocide"?

Right-o!

 

[Frankfooter]

You guys keep using the word genocide, I don't think that word means what you think it means. Going to war and having collateral damage done to civilians that in many cases your enemy hides behind on purpose to get them killed to get western sympathy isn't genocide.
OTOH trying to exterminate an entire people from River to Sea is... granted they don't have the power to do it, just raids over the border actually targeting civilians and terrorist attacks again targeting civilians but it is their goal as stated over and over by them and their fellow travelers both organizational and individuals.

You and Frankie are the disgusting pro genocide ones here.

How much hate must you be infused with that you are blind to this.

Yes, yes you are.

You and Frankie calling people pro genocide and racist is pretty much like Paul Bernardo and Bill Cosby accusing people of being rapists.
It's time to stop OK. No more. Where are your parents, who are your parents? I am going to call child protective services. It's time to stop.

Or you are wrong and are on the wrong side of history backing the most evil act of this century.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771238247449899285

 

[Frankfooter]

So let me understand. 75 years of Israeli "genocide" of Palestinians leading to a massive population increase of Palestinians totally makes sense from your point of view?

And killing only 2 or 3 people if you say to yourself "Bang-bang! I'm really mean! I'm killing everybody!! Bang-bang-bang!" is actually "genocide"?

Right-o!

5% of the population of Gaza has been killed, injured or is missing and buried in rubble.
Half of the population could starve to death.

That's genocide.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771149561819480458

 

[basketcase]

Yes, only the ones that lobby for a foreign country.

So you think some Americans aren't allowed to lobby their government, simply because you've read the "protocols' too many times.

The "P" stands for Palestine. If you get rid of the Zionist lobby, there would be no need for them.

Thanks for proving the point.

 

[basketcase]

Whichever way you spin it, the Brits were the colonial invaders. ...

Every time you post you show how ignorant you are of history and current events.

The Brits were not foreign colonizers. They won a war against the Ottomans, the previous empire that ruled the region and whether you understand the difference or not, The Ottomans were Turks, not Arabs and were just as foreign as anyone else.

And the Brits (and French) did push for local rule handing Syria, Jordan, and Iraq to Arab rule (even though those Arab leaders were foreigners implanted by the Brits). The Brits did not invade those states, simply did like every other power and wanted rulers that were friendly to them. The mandates for Palestine and Lebanon were also set to be limited and were designed to lead to local rule over a few decades.

I'll also remind you that this argument started with you wanting to talk about who started ethnic violence started in the region which you quickly changed to justifying anti-immigrant violence (a strange position for a South Asian immigrant to Canada to hold).


It is also very telling that your criticism of Jews lobbying their government is based on the typical racist conspiracy theories of Jews using money to control the world. No surprise that is where you went.

Jews in 1919 were not dropping JDAMS and many of them were indigenous but that didn't stop Arab leaders from inciting attacks on indigenous Jewish communities. As we discussed before, in addition to the indigenous Jews Jewish immigrants were following the legal immigration process both under the Ottomans and Brits and legally buying land, the exact same thing you did.

It's also worth mentioning that the war "75 years" ago started with Arab militias attacking Jewish communities and expanded when Arab states invaded the instant the British Mandate ended. Israel was content to accept exactly what the UN partition plan mandated. It was the Arab leadership that chose war to stop it and it is the exact same mentality that has Hamas (and much of the PA) rejecting any kind of peace that includes a Jewish presence.

Finally, it's desperate of you to claim mirroring Nazi cartoons and millennia old anti-Jewish tropes are acceptable.

 

[basketcase]

The Ottomans were also a colonial power. And no the Arabs did not love them. That is why you had Arab nationalist movements, who actually fought the Turks during WW 1. What does this have anything at all to do with the Brits taking over Palestine and other lands, after WW 1 and handing it to people from Europe? Nothing.
...

The principle of self-determination at the Peace of Paris was based on empires being broken up into national states even if it meant forced movement of populations. This happened all over Eastern Europe and the Middle East. At the time of it's collapse, Jews made up between 1.5 and 2% of the Ottoman Empire so under the principle of national states that applied everywhere else, there should have been a Jewish state about that size established in the former Ottoman Empire. And Israel did become home of most of the million Arab Jews who were chased from their homes over ethnic hatred.

But you guys have an agenda that goes far beyond reality or fairness so you'll go on pretending you have the slightest hint of history as an excuse to justify your ignorant views.

 

[basketcase]

You guys keep using the word genocide, I don't think that word means what you think it means. ...

Just like Frank keeps using the term apartheid ignoring that 20% of Israelis are Arabs with the exact same legal rights as Jewish Israelis (though admittedly suffering from systemic racism just like many populations inside Canada).

 

[basketcase]

Or you are wrong and are on the wrong side of history backing the most evil act of this century.
...

Says the guy who thinks Hamas are in the right.

 

[mandrill]

I dont think you know what genocide means. Genocide is not a word that is thrown around willy nilly. Let me address a few of these nonsensical points I have seen you post multiple times but I never quite addressed it, because I have your goofy ass on ignore.

1. It is NOT collateral damage. Per the rules of war, collateral damage, is when you conduct a precision strike, and a guy standing next to the building is accidentally killed. That is collateral damage. When 35,000 people are killed, often times with bombs when people are present - such as the strike on Jabalia, it is a war crime. Not collateral damage. It is also not collateral damage when a military strike does not pass, the test of proportionality. Again per the rules of war set forth by IHL.

They actually are precision strikes. But when you set up your HQ in a hospital like Hamas, even precision strikes are going to kill bystanders. And "35,000" is a bullshit Hamas figure.

2. The definition of genocide, per the genocide convention is as follows:

Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Any one of the 5 crimes above, done, with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, is considered genocide. It does not have to result in population decline for it to be genocide.

So let us see if Israel is committing genocide, per those definitions, shall we?

Pre-condition 1: Are the Palestinians, a national, ethnic, racial or a religious group? - Yes. Check.
Pre-condition 2: Does Israel have an intent to destroy Palestinians? Meaning, have they incited genocide and shown intent to commit genocide? - Yes. Check. Couple of videos below.

Pre-condition 3: Which of the 5 crimes has Israel committed? 3 of the 5.

1. Killing members of the group - Yes.
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group - Yes.
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part - Yes.
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group - No, evidence of this.
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group - No, evidence of this.

So all 3 pre-conditions - check. Israel is committing genocide. Not because I said so. But by the official definitions of genocide. Now it is time to get your head outta your ass, stop listening to Justin Bieber and step on over into the light.

Yeah, when Hamas sets up HQ in a hospital, bystanders are going to get killed. That's collateral damage, not genocide.

 

[Frankfooter]

Every time you post you show how ignorant you are of history and current events.

The Brits were not foreign colonizers. They won a war against the Ottomans, the previous empire that ruled the region and whether you understand the difference or not, The Ottomans were Turks, not Arabs and were just as foreign as anyone else.

And the Brits (and French) did push for local rule handing Syria, Jordan, and Iraq to Arab rule (even though those Arab leaders were foreigners implanted by the Brits). The Brits did not invade those states, simply did like every other power and wanted rulers that were friendly to them. The mandates for Palestine and Lebanon were also set to be limited and were designed to lead to local rule over a few decades.

I'll also remind you that this argument started with you wanting to talk about who started ethnic violence started in the region which you quickly changed to justifying anti-immigrant violence (a strange position for a South Asian immigrant to Canada to hold).


It is also very telling that your criticism of Jews lobbying their government is based on the typical racist conspiracy theories of Jews using money to control the world. No surprise that is where you went.

Jews in 1919 were not dropping JDAMS and many of them were indigenous but that didn't stop Arab leaders from inciting attacks on indigenous Jewish communities. As we discussed before, in addition to the indigenous Jews Jewish immigrants were following the legal immigration process both under the Ottomans and Brits and legally buying land, the exact same thing you did.

It's also worth mentioning that the war "75 years" ago started with Arab militias attacking Jewish communities and expanded when Arab states invaded the instant the British Mandate ended. Israel was content to accept exactly what the UN partition plan mandated. It was the Arab leadership that chose war to stop it and it is the exact same mentality that has Hamas (and much of the PA) rejecting any kind of peace that includes a Jewish presence.

Finally, it's desperate of you to claim mirroring Nazi cartoons and millennia old anti-Jewish tropes are acceptable.

I find it entertaining to watch you try to argue that the brits weren't colonial to an Indo Canadian.
That's pretty out of touch.
What next, you'll discuss how much culture the residential schools brought to our indigenous peoples?

 

[Frankfooter]

Just like Frank keeps using the term apartheid ignoring that 20% of Israelis are Arabs with the exact same legal rights as Jewish Israelis (though admittedly suffering from systemic racism just like many populations inside Canada).

You just admitted that there is apartheid suffered for Israeli Arabs as well.
The three levels of apartheid rule are clearly documented in each of the UN, HRW, Amnesty and B'tselem reports on Israel reports.
You bring up a weak sauce argument with ignorant claims that only prove you've never read the charges.

 

[Frankfooter]

Says the guy who thinks Hamas are in the right.

Hamas have the right to use violence to resist the illegal occupation of Palestine but they are in the wrong to target civilians.
Much like Israel is wrong to kill 30,000 civilians in Gaza, rule through apartheid, occupy Palestine and commit genocide.

Same laws, same rules and same human rights.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771238247449899285

 

[Frankfooter]

They actually are precision strikes. But when you set up your HQ in a hospital like Hamas, even precision strikes are going to kill bystanders. And "35,000" is a bullshit Hamas figure.

Yeah, when Hamas sets up HQ in a hospital, bystanders are going to get killed. That's collateral damage, not genocide.

No, its not precision strikes.
The IDF uses US made 2000 lb bombs on residential areas.
They shoot people waiting for aid.
Now they're attacking a hospital, raping the women, killing the patients and destroying the building.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1771593486489325639

 

[toguy5252]

Population increase, decrease etc do not matter. The definition of genocide:

Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

Per the definition of genocide, you only need to commit 1 of the 5 crimes, with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

Israel has time and again, both shown intent (their own politicians have) and committed atleast 3 of the 5 crimes above.

Statutory interpretation is obviously not your strong point.

 

[toguy5252]

I dont have to interpret anything when genocide is happening right in front of my eyes.

You are misreading or misunderstanding the definition. By your own post you are showing that whatever is happening in Gaza i is not genocide.

 

[toguy5252]

There is nothing to interpret or misread in the definition. It is plain English. Israel has shown intent, and it has deliberately killed.

You are wrong and as I have said attempting to have a reasonable conversation with you is an exercise in futility. Ask someone who actually know how to read a statutory definition.

 

[shack]

Give Palestine back to the Palestinians.

 

[shack]

Genocide does not have to result in population decline. It is about causing deaths, with the intent to cause deaths - to put it simply. So you could kill only 2 or 3 people - but if the intent of killing the 2 or 3 people was to exterminate an ethnicity or even ethnically cleanse them from the region, it is genocide. That is per the genocide conventions definition of genocide.

So you're saying that Oct.7 was genocide.

 

[shack]

Population increase, decrease etc do not matter.

Once again, you love to discard as irrelevant, facts that do not fit your narrative.

 

[Frankfooter]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770472869337682394