The Cold War: A Hoax?

[winstar]

I was watching CNN and they did a story on Ronald Reagan and how two years before the Berlin Wall fell, he said the famous words: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall". Everytime I watch this, I feel it was scripted. Yes it was a prepared speech, and yes he was an actor, but something about it and the timing seemed kinda sketchy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtYdjbpBk6A

4 years later, Gorbachev was awarded the Ronald Reagan Freedom Award

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Freedom_Award

When I think about it, The US and Russia, never went to war directly. In Afghanistan there was a war, but the US never invaded Russia like they did Vietnam, or Iraq, or Afghanistan.

But by selling the potential for war to each country's citizens, you could probably get an enormous amount of productivity, by selling a war. So the US invests trillions of dollars into science and tech, and Russia mobilizes its citizens to develop rockets and space ships, and international space stations and subs and computers etc.

What if the cold war was just a public relations campaign by both countries to sell the idea of an enemy, but in reality used solely as a motivation to develop each country into a superpower? What if both sides covertly were cooperating with each other all these years, yet selling the idea that each other was the enemy, solely to mobilize it's citizens to be hyper-productive, becoming the world's dominant superpowers?

Just a thought, because the more I think about it, the cold war with respect to the US and Russia, was more about hype and propaganda, then it was about a real physical threat.

What I mean is: Is it possible that the US and Russia were working together after WWII and came up with this idea together, working together covertly, while publicly selling the idea of each other as the Enemy?

I know some will say that's crazy, but is it possible everyone was duped by both country's leaders for all these years just to get us to work harder? Keep in mind that Reagan and Gorbachev were meeting on a regular basis at summits etc. So it wasn't as if they weren't talking or didn't know each other personally.



Thoughts?

 

[jwmorrice]

That's crazy.

jwm

 

[mandrill]

It's a standard left wing conspiracy theory from the period. To some extant, there is a grain of truth in it, from about the mid 60's. After the JFK era, there was no real chance the Soviets were going to go on a major offensive against the West or vice versa.

At the same time, if one of the 2 countries became lax and allowed itself to fall hopelessly behind the other in military might, it would become the victim of international pressure and bullying.

The situation lent itself to exploitation by both defence contractors in the US and super-patriotic politicians in both countries,

 

[Shallow Throat]

one thing I did know was that once the Cold War ended, the U.S. would need some excuse to keep that War Machine running. After all, you can only build so many nukes anyway.
What is the best way to keep that machine running? You would need to continually supply conventional weapons.

The best solution is to have an enemy that you can never defeat - terrorists.

 

[HAMSTER INSPECTOR]

No one outside of the back room boys will know the truth about this one, but making secret deals is nothing new in politics. We now know that the USSR was being bankrupted and their people had to live in poverty for the communist government to keep up in the arms race. Their people were starting to revolt or leave the USSR for a better life elsewhere. I would not be surprised if some sort of deal was made in the back rooms.

Just before reagan took office, the Iran hostage crisis was taking place. Because the Iranian government did not like Carter they did not release the hostages until reagan took office. The reagan people were talking to the Iranians even before they took office.

Many people remember that it was G.W. Bush that sent the troops into Iraq, but it was actualy Clinton that sent them in to cover up the Lewinsky situation. As the troops were being deployed into Iraq, there was an American military spy plane incident where a spy plane was caught flying off the coast of China. A Chinese military jet was sent to force the American plane to land and in the game of chiken in the air the Chinese fighter jet was knocked out of the sky. The incident disipated within weeks. Imagine if a Chinese plane was caught flying off the coast of the USA! There would be WW III. The incident disapeared within weeks because the Americans did not need the problems with the war in Iraq just starting. The Americans made a deal where at that time China was not in the WTO World Trade Organization, but was allowed by the United States to join within a year of that incident. So, Lewinskys BJ is responsible for all the low cost goods coming from China into the USA and Canada.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1260109.stm
Spy plane incident news story.

The mouth that made over a billion Chinese happy!

 

[mandrill]

Along the same line, it has now been revealed that JFK did NOT force Krushchev to remove missiles from Cuba in 62(?) purely by having bigger balls.

Apparently, there was a secret deal wherein a similar # of US missiles pointing at Moscow were removed from Turkey before the Russians yanked theirs from Cuba. The info was kept secret for some decades so JFK could look like a hero in the West.

One wonders if placing missiles in Cuba was not a deliberately thought-out ploy be Krushchev just to get the Turkey missiles removed.

 

[Aardvark154]

One wonders if placing missiles in Cuba was not a deliberately thought-out ploy be Krushchev just to get the Turkey missiles removed.

That has been speculated about for years. The end result it is true was that the (rapidly becoming obsolete) Jupiter Missiles were removed from Turkey, however, I don't recall (although I may be mistaken) ever reading of any direct quid pro quo.

 

[Aardvark154]

Imagine if a Chinese plane was caught flying off the coast of the USA! There would be WW III.

That's just plain foolish. Soviet and now occasionaly Russian military aircraft routinely flew along the coast of the U.S. and of Canada in international airspace, and were routinely intecepted and followed by Canadian and U.S. fighter aircraft.


The difference is that all parties observed the rules and did not engage in behaviour highly likely to cause collisions - as did the Chinese.

 

[Aardvark154]

That's crazy.

As to the original post, that says it all.

 

[GDLLover]

Sounds like a solid theory.

If there was this conspiracy then how come there was this huge underwater surveillance going on. The US had a full sonar system to monitor Soviet subs that was kept under secrecy for over 40 years.

I'm kinda skeptical anyways, i'm still having problems with the rumor that the world is not flat.

 

[Cycleguy007]

And here I thought Tom Hanks ended the cold war!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472062/plotsummary

 

[landscaper]

The Jupiter missiles were next to useless, they had a continental targeting program , basically over yonder targeting, they were being replaced at the time with ICBM systems in the Continental US. The Cuban missiles awere never actually operational Krushev was basically running a bluff. The problem was the Americans knew it was a bluff, it spiraled almost out of control when military types who did not have the whole picture gotr into teh act from both sides.

The " cold war" was very real from thestand point that up until the early 60's the loser would be an historical afterthought. From the mid 60's until Regan the R&D advantage that the americans had basically bankrupted the soviet union which is basically one of the two ways and arms race ends.

By the time Rega was making his speach in Germany the USSR was bankrupt unable to feed its citizens its armed forces corrupt and next to useless.

 

[benstt]

The Cuban missiles awere never actually operational Krushev was basically running a bluff. The problem was the Americans knew it was a bluff, it spiraled almost out of control when military types who did not have the whole picture gotr into teh act from both sides.

The long range missiles were not yet operational, but short range Frog missiles were, complete with warheads. I don't think the Americans knew this, and may have started a nuclear war had they invaded, like the Joint Chiefs wanted. I think I read this in Operation Anadyr, which interviewed the Russian commanders.

 

[benstt]

I was watching CNN and they did a story on Ronald Reagan and how two years before the Berlin Wall fell, he said the famous words: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall". Everytime I watch this, I feel it was scripted. Yes it was a prepared speech, and yes he was an actor, but something about it and the timing seemed kinda sketchy.

Ronnie nearly pushed the Russians into believing he would launch a pre-emptive attack with his rhetoric, especially around the KAL shootdown and the Able Archer exercises.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83

 

[benstt]

That has been speculated about for years. The end result it is true was that the (rapidly becoming obsolete) Jupiter Missiles were removed from Turkey, however, I don't recall (although I may be mistaken) ever reading of any direct quid pro quo.

Not sure if Kruschev's original intention was there, but when the US called him on Cuba, he wanted the Cuba-Turkey trade. And got it, according to 'One Minute to Midnight', but on condition of secrecy.

The movie 'Thirteen Days' portrayed it as well. so it may also have been in RFK's book.

By the way, 'Thirteen Days' is well done. There's a scene where some flunkies wait outside the negotiation room, and the seemingly tough-assed Russian aide, a female, is shaking with fear. Sticks out in my mind.

 

[red]

yes. the cold war is a hoax. it goes like this. at the end of ww2- roosevelt and stalin were drinking. they started kidding around and stalin said- "hey why don't play a joke on everyone and pretend to hate each other"

roosevelt "hahaha that would be a real gas. but lets not tell churchill"

 

[Aardvark154]

may have started a nuclear war had they invaded, like the Joint Chiefs wanted.

In re-reading this I believe you are saying that the Joint Chiefs felt Cuba should be invaded, not that they thought a thermonuclear war was a great idea.

Ronnie nearly pushed the Russians into believing he would launch a pre-emptive attack with his rhetoric, especially around the KAL shootdown and the Able Archer exercises.

I'm not sure that they were that much more convinced than at other times during the Cold War. What I do believe they were convinced of is that President Reagan wasn't going to blink, something that always pissed off the Soviet's no end. At the same time President Reagan was much more serious about nuclear arms reduction than many of his advisors felt prudent.

By the way, 'Thirteen Days' is well done. There's a scene where some flunkies wait outside the negotiation room, and the seemingly tough-assed Russian aide, a female, is shaking with fear. Sticks out in my mind.

The USSR once you got past the initial Ulyanov/Lenin years was a much more religious place than often thought.

 

[basketcase]

This thread is another winner from winstar.

p.s. for red, the cold war was set in place by the 1930's. Much of the US hated the reds more than the Germans (read about Patton for example).

Wait...red talking about the reds? I think I smell a conspiracy!

 

[benstt]

In re-reading this I believe you are saying that the Joint Chiefs felt Cuba should be invaded, not that they thought a thermonuclear war was a great idea.

Yep, sorry to be unclear. Yes, the Joint Chiefs favoured invading Cuba and removing the missiles and Castro, if I recall correctly. They would have been in for a surprise on the beach likely.

I'm not sure that they were that much more convinced than at other times during the Cold War. What I do believe they were convinced of is that President Reagan wasn't going to blink, something that always pissed off the Soviet's no end. At the same time President Reagan was much more serious about nuclear arms reduction than many of his advisors felt prudent.

From the book I read, it got to the point that the KGB asked people to monitor the Pentagon for extraordinary number of offices lit at night, trying to get a read on whether something big was up. It is fairly scary that they felt unsure enough about these military exercises to resort to basic information like that to try to sort out the truth from the rhetoric.

What really mystified them was the KAL shootdown - they knew Reagan knew it was a mistaken identity, but he kept pushing the point that it was intentional, etc. 'Evil Empire' and all that. It was matching right in with their paranoia.

From the accounts, Reagan really toned down his rhetoric following this incident.

I believe that pushing the technology edge to the limit helped push the Soviets to collapse, and so was a good thing, but driving them into believing that the US would launch a first strike was idiocy. Hence the basic dilemma of judging the Reagan years.

 

[The Options Menu]

Not so much a hoax as a mutually useful tool. There were legitimate differences, but there was no shortage of fear mongering on both sides used to justify all manner of things.

Here's a topical example: