South African president wants to seize land from white farmers without compensation

[danmand]

I laughed myself to tears when I read that Ramaphosa said that the expropriation without compensation will not affect jobs and investments. The ANC replaced one half-witt with another. Modern farming is incredibly capital intensive and no bank will invest in an enterprise that comes with an built in instability. That means no money for equipment, seeds, irrigation, etc. Basically, it will push the agricultural sector back to the 19th century.

There are successful black farmers in South Africa, but inevitably the distribution of land to the blacks will result in many smaller farms, instead of industrial type farms. That is the opposite to what has happened in Canada where the family farms have been replaced by large industrial type farms. That is not necessarily bad for food production, as European and Canadian countries survived for long periods with small farms.

The political uproars and conflicts will have a negative influence on the economy, for sure, but that is different from food supply. The government could avoid all these conflicts by expropriating the land at fair prices, paid in 3% 30 year government bonds.

 

[james t kirk]

Ahem, it was the Boers that oppressed the blacks through Apartheid rule.

Apartheid ended 25 years ago.

 

[danmand]

Apartheid ended 25 years ago.

Are you suggesting it would have been better if the land "reform" had happened 25 years ago? Mandela and Mbeki thought differently.

 

[james t kirk]

Are you suggesting it would have been better if the land "reform" had happened 25 years ago? Mandela and Mbeki thought differently.

I'm saying that seizing land from legitimate owners who PAID for their property never ever works.

Please site me one example of where in history that this kind of thing has ever been a success? Never.

It's Orwellian. The pigs take over the farm and become the new farmers only worse. The blacks will kick out the whites, the land will go to corrupt blacks and it will be worse than ever by 10 times. Mark my words.

 

[danmand]

I'm saying that seizing land from legitimate owners who PAID for their property never ever works.

Please site me one example of where in history that this kind of thing has ever been a success? Never.

Your opinion is irrelevant, although likely correct. It was inevitable that this would happen.

You cannot expect to be a small minority oppressing the majority without it ending some day and your privileges and assets being taken away from you.

Everybody who had any knowledge of South Africa has known that the Boers were going to pay for their suppression of the black majority sooner or later. It was inevitable. A great many South Africans saw the writing on the wall in Zimbabwe. Why do you think so many white South Africans left the country? I thought it would happen as soon as Mandela passed away.

Why anybody would expect a different outcome in South Africa than in Rhodesia is puzzling to me. There are a lot of old sayings about expecting a different outcome from doing the same thing.

 

[Frankfooter]

Your opinion is irrelevant, although likely correct. It was inevitable that this would happen.

You cannot expect to be a small minority oppressing the majority without it ending some day and your privileges and assets being taken away from you.

Everybody who had any knowledge of South Africa has known that the Boers were going to pay for their suppression of the black majority sooner or later. It was inevitable. A great many South Africans saw the writing on the wall in Zimbabwe. Why do you think so many white South Africans left the country? I thought it would happen as soon as Mandela passed away.

Why anybody would expect a different outcome in South Africa than in Rhodesia is puzzling to me. There are a lot of old sayings about expecting a different outcome from doing the same thing.

The big issues seem to be that 2 decades after the end of apartheid 72% of farmland is still owned by richer white farmers, and the divide between rich and poor has gotten higher.

More than two decades after white-minority rule ended in South Africa, most of its profitable farms and estates are still owned by white people, and about 95 percent of the country’s wealth is in the hands of 10 percent of the population.

A 2017 audit by the government shows whites own 72 percent of farmland, Gugile Nkwinti, who was land-reform minister and was made water affairs minister on Feb. 26, told lawmakers Tuesday.

The amount of land owned by the government and racial groups who were disadvantaged under whites-only rule rose to 26.7 percent of South Africa’s agricultural land in 2016, from 14.9 percent in 1994, according to a 2017 land audit by AgriSA.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-review-constitution-on-land-expropriation

The smarter plan would be just to tax them heavily, most of those farmers have big debts. South Africa sounds like they have plenty of issues, from the previous gov't corruption, to previous disaster capitalism moves, to Cape Town running out of water.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...tourists-reservoir-south-africa-a8175686.html

Zimbabwe shows expropriation without compensation doesn't lead to economic success, but what they've been doing hasn't worked either.

 

[Aardvark154]

Your opinion is irrelevant, although likely correct. It was inevitable that this would happen.

You cannot expect to be a small minority oppressing the majority without it ending some day and your privileges and assets being taken away from you.

Everybody who had any knowledge of South Africa has known that the Boers were going to pay for their suppression of the black majority sooner or later. It was inevitable. A great many South Africans saw the writing on the wall in Zimbabwe. Why do you think so many white South Africans left the country? I thought it would happen as soon as Mandela passed away.

Why anybody would expect a different outcome in South Africa than in Rhodesia is puzzling to me. There are a lot of old sayings about expecting a different outcome from doing the same thing.

Presuming you are correct, you are correct in the short term because the West even the Netherlands, sawed the legs off from under South Africa.

Which all goes to: This was politics, not some preordained conclusion.

Beyond that, the White population of South Africa, but a portion of whom were Afrikaners were unwilling (and I'd agree with them) to engage in wholesale murder. The problem is I don't see that as being true of the current leadership of the ANC.

Back to my original point where are all those who protested against Apartheid to protest against this?

 

[basketcase]

nonsense. The Khoi people were hunter/gatherers, the Zulu's were farmers.

The Zulus who invaded and stole land from other tribes during the same time period that the Dutch were colonizing South Africa?

What make the Zulu colonization any more acceptable than European ones?

 

[Aardvark154]

The Zulus who invaded and stole land from other tribes during the same time period that the Dutch were colonizing South Africa?

What make the Zulu colonization any more acceptable than European ones?

Danmand wants to pretend that what you write --- which is entirely historically acurate, isn't.

 

[JohnLarue]

The government could avoid all these conflicts by expropriating the land at fair prices, paid in 3% 30 year government bonds.

???
3% for 30 years ??
Backed by the good faith of a government which just expropriated all the land from the legal title holders?????

Nobody will underwrite that bond, not even @ 25%
I would not give you pennies on the dollar for that bond

You may wish to reconsider the economic outcomes of such a foolish move
I hope you are taking notes

 

[danmand]

Presuming you are correct, you are correct in the short term because the West even the Netherlands, sawed the legs off from under South Africa.

Which all goes to: This was politics, not some preordained conclusion.

Beyond that, the White population of South Africa, but a portion of whom were Afrikaners were unwilling (and I'd agree with them) to engage in wholesale murder. The problem is I don't see that as being true of the current leadership of the ANC.

Back to my original point where are all those who protested against Apartheid to protest against this?

Maybe USA will send in the marines to save the white farmers from the government confiscating their land. RTP.

 

[danmand]

???
3% for 30 years ??
Backed by the good faith of a government which just expropriated all the land from the legal title holders?????

Nobody will underwrite that bond, not even @ 25%
I would not give you pennies on the dollar for that bond

Nobody would need to underwrite these government bonds. The farmers would get something, and the government would have plausible deniability. Expropriations happen in all western countries, Canada included.

There might be some inflation and/or devaluation happening as the result of the increase in Money supply.

 

[danmand]

The Zulus who invaded and stole land from other tribes during the same time period that the Dutch were colonizing South Africa?

What make the Zulu colonization any more acceptable than European ones?

None of this matter one bit. What matters is what I now have written several times:

You cannot expect to be a small minority oppressing the majority without it ending some day and your privileges and assets being taken away from you.

Everybody who had any knowledge of South Africa has known that the Boers were going to pay for their suppression of the black majority sooner or later. It was inevitable. A great many South Africans saw the writing on the wall in Zimbabwe. Why do you think so many white South Africans left the country? I myself thought it would happen as soon as Mandela passed away. That is why I divested myself of my property in South Africa.

Why anybody would expect a different outcome in South Africa than in Rhodesia is puzzling to me. There are a lot of old sayings about expecting a different outcome from doing the same thing.

 

[Aardvark154]

Expropriations happen in all western countries, Canada included.

Indeed but the taking is paid for at fair market value and the payments aren't dragged out over decades.

 

[basketcase]

None of this matter one bit....

Yet the ANC is still pushing for something you claim doesn't matter.


It is obvious that the issue is the impact of inequality and has nothing to do with the ethnicity of land owners. There are two ways to reduce the inequality. One is to ensure the marginalised group have access to education and opportunity so that a gradual change occurs. The other is to upend society and somehow manage the resulting chaos to ensure that all citizens are cared for.

And the law as it is is simply scapegoating a minority group. If the intent was to give more small farmers the ability to support themselves then they would be nationalizing and distributing land from corporate farms, not simply targeting white owned farms.

And it is foolish to think that racist policies can be used to undo racist policies.

 

[JohnLarue]

Nobody would need to underwrite these government bonds. The farmers would get something, and the government would have plausible deniability. Expropriations happen in all western countries, Canada included.

There might be some inflation and/or devaluation happening as the result of the increase in Money supply.

Can you not process plain simple logic?
You say the farmers would get paid out at fair market value by issuing worthless 3% 30 year bonds
That is not getting paid as that paper would have the value of colored toilet paper.
The government would not able to borrow any money from the markets (from anyone) as they would not have any credibility let alone any credit worthiness
The currency would also become worthless and there would be hyper inflation

what always comes with hyper inflation?
Civil unrest, followed by civil war, especially if population is not well educated

What commies do not seem to understand is that stealing from someone who has legal title always leads to really really bad outcomes.

You say expropriations happen in Canada?
Isolated cases for an infrastructure development perhaps.
Not all the arable land
What value would you place on all the farmland in Canada?

By your strange logic the true owners of all the land in Canada , the USA or any part of Central / South America (including whatever property you own) are the native peoples
Would you accept a worthless piece of paper for your property & leave without a fight?

You really do not think these things through do you?

 

[Frankfooter]

The currency would also become worthless and there would be hyper inflation

They already lived through a reworking of their economy based on the Milton Friedman school, that's why they are still messed up.

 

[danmand]

Can you not process plain simple logic?
You say the farmers would get paid out at fair market value by issuing worthless 3% 30 year bonds
That is not getting paid as that paper would have the value of colored toilet paper.
The government would not able to borrow any money from the markets (from anyone) as they would not have any credibility let alone any credit worthiness
The currency would also become worthless and there would be hyper inflation

what always comes with hyper inflation?
Civil unrest, followed by civil war, especially if population is not well educated

What commies do not seem to understand is that stealing from someone who has legal title always leads to really really bad outcomes.

You say expropriations happen in Canada?
Isolated cases for an infrastructure development perhaps.
Not all the arable land
What value would you place on all the farmland in Canada?

By your strange logic the true owners of all the land in Canada , the USA or any part of Central / South America (including whatever property you own) are the native peoples
Would you accept a worthless piece of paper for your property & leave without a fight?

You really do not think these things through do you?

You must be a radical communist, if you think it is better to confiscate the white farmers land without compensation than to expropriate at fair market prices payable in government bonds.

Maybe the Americans and the British who supported and prolonged Apartheid could guarantee the South African bonds for the recipients.

 

[JohnLarue]

You must be a radical communist, if you think it is better to confiscate the white farmers land without compensation than to expropriate at fair market prices payable in government bonds.

Again you seam to be having a comprehension problem

expropriate at fair market prices payable in government bonds which are worthless is confiscation without compensation

You call me a commie??
Oh boy! Pot Kettle
Wrong again

Maybe the Americans and the British who supported and prolonged Apartheid could guarantee the South African bonds for the recipients.

Maybe?
Once they stopped laughing at you?

Seriously that idea has a snowballs chance in hell

Both the Americans and the British would advise the South African government such an expropriation will be an economic and (cruel) humanitarian disaster.
They certainly would not financially guarantee a plan which is sure to fail

While you are at it why not tell the Americans they have to fork over fair market value to the native Americans for all the property in the USA (including your property)

BTW since you sold your property in SA, by your logic you sold property which never truly belonged to you.
So do not be surprised if you get a sizeable bill payable to the people of SA

 

[danmand]

Again you seam to be having a comprehension problem

expropriate at fair market prices payable in government bonds which are worthless is confiscation without compensation

You call me a commie??
Oh boy! Pot Kettle
Wrong

I think you should check up on the valuations of South African Government bonds. You will be surprised.

As surprised as I am that you would rather confiscate the white farmers land without compensation than pay them fair value in Government bonds. I will take your word for it that you are not a communist, but you are in line with the most leftists of the ANC.

I think there is little chance of the Marines being sent in to save the whites, so try to come up with another plan to help the white farmers.