Ricky Williams on the Argos?

[johnhenrygalt]

I welcome Ricky Williams' move to the CFL.

While the NFL talent level is uniformly higher than the CFL, the difference is not a wide as is sometimes believed. The CFL puts a good product on the field. Sometimes the play can appear sloppy, but that is partially due to the limitless backfield motion and the wide field. Put a couple NFL clubs on a wide field and you would see more blown coverages and missed tackles as well.

As for the running game in the CFL, most clubs recently have focused on draws and quick-hitting plays between the tackles. You see very few slow-developing deep handoffs, sweeps or pitches. It will be very interesting to see what the Argos do with Williams. I'd love to see some good outside running and a credible threat in the backfield on any down. A John Avery/Ricky Williams combo could be unstoppable.

I'm a died-in-the-wool Alouettes fan, so my enthusiasm is somewhat tempered. Even with Damon Allen aging every year, Toronto is the team to beat in the East. Don Matthews' clubs tend to focus on small quick defences, capable of running QBs ragged with the constant blitzing, but if Montreal wants to have success against what looks to be a solid Argo running game, the Als will need a little more meat on defence.

And of course the East is no longer just a two-club show. With Jason Maas leading the 'Cats, Hamilton can't be counted out.

 

[xdog]

It would be nice to see

Williams rushing for 2000-3000 yards but it won't happen. If he played in Winnipeg, it's possible. Argos have too much receiving talent. they also have 2 other backs that could start. Argos will probably get rid of Avery and his salary very soon.
Remember that Williams is smaller than when he put up those yards when he was going to the pro bowl. He didn't exactly put up big numbers with the Fish last season. The Argos also need to improve their O-line.
The Argos will not change their total offense for Williams. They will run a few different plays. The Argos have a lot of confident players who want to play. These guys don't want to give up pt for Williams. I want to see if their team chemistry will be affected.


X

 

[johnhenrygalt]

Williams rushing for 2000-3000 yards but it won't happen. If he played in Winnipeg, it's possible. Argos have too much receiving talent.

That's true. In the CFL, the club with the leading rushing attack is usually in the bottom half of the standings. As a general rule, a back won't see 20 carries a game unless the air attack is stalled or the QB is unsure of himself. But if the Argos want to use 2006 to effect a change at QB and groom someone to take over from Damon Allen, having a guy like Williams in the backfield can be a big help.

 

[RTRD]

Cute...

well it seems the difficult contract situation never was. Amazing that 2 teams and leagues could so quickly agree; to be a fly on the wall of several football executive offices...

mlam: I think maybe you aren't too conversant with the CFL. In the past about 15 years only teams coached by Don Matthews have featured power running games by mixing about 50/50 pass/run. It's otherwise a passing league. I generally agree with "all a running back does is take the ball and run until someone stops him from running" of conservative run-based offenses popular in the NFL. Not the case in the CFL.

The Argos, should they land him, would change their offense to accommodate Ricky Williams. WHATEVER they had to do, they would do it....is something talking head broadcasters and fans like to expound on. Realistically it's too risky a season long plan due to smart defenses and injuries. However, if you stress accommodate, I agree: they have potential to become more like an NFL team with 2 incredibly strong running backs. Your same argument was popular when Rocket Ismail was signed for $25million by the Argonauts. It was not WHATEVER they had to do, they would do it., he became an important but not featured part of the offense.

Toronto Argonaut offense plan is becoming increasingly deep and difficult with subterfuge and speed. Any one year player, with no CFL experience, will not dominate like you and others suggest, both from learning a new, complex system and game and because the offensive plan won't feature one player, especially a running back in the pass dominated CFL. Also, a running back is very dependent on the offensive line and last season they really didn't help much the leagues previous rushing leader. So, I maintain that... Should he play 1 year in the CFL, RWilliams will probably be entirely average with flashes of extreme brilliance....will be closer to the truth at season end than your glowing assessment. Regardless, I'm a fan, so it would be great if I'm wrong.

Your last paragraph condemning the CFL is untrue and belies a lack of knowledge of the contractual workings of professional football. I do believe the quality of NFL play and player is generally better, certainly more specialized, but not exclusively so, and not all players desire to play in the NFL.

The trouble with categorical statements, while fun, is that they're so easy to pick apart. But let's be positive, whether we really played or not.

...you are SOOO articulate. Swoon...I'm getting all moist...

1) Yes, it is more of a passing league, partially because there are only 3 downs, partially because their are no running backs in the CFL you could build an offense around. That not withstanding, Ricky Williams will be the best back in the CFL. Period. You can mince words on what "dominate" means - I am saying he will gain more yards than any other CFL back.

2) Rocket Ismail was no Ricky Williams. Rocket Ismail was a great physical talent, but a marginal football player. No Pro Bowl appearances, never amongst the top receivers in the NFL in yards on catches. Fast, but too small, and too fragile, and based on what I have seen, a bit soft. Ricky Williams is an Pro Bowl caliber NFL back.

Listen to this - no player of Ricky Williams caliber has ever joined the CFL. I know other celebrated players have come in like Rocket ($25 million huh?) and Lawrence Phillips. Neither of those guys were / are Ricky Williams. Note: I am not talking about players - the small handful- who exceled in the CFL and then the NFL (no, Doug Flutie would not be on that list).

3) Your comment about the OLine is legit. You have garnered a wee bit of my respect, not that you care. I honestly had not considered that - and my guess would be that in the CFL the better athletes will be on the defensive side of the ball. Hell, I could be ALL WRONG after all (no I'm not...)

"Your last paragraph condemning the CFL is untrue and belies a lack of knowledge of the contractual workings of professional football. I do believe the quality of NFL play and player is generally better, certainly more specialized, but not exclusively so, and not all players desire to play in the NFL."

And exactly what lack of knowledge would that be? Do tell...

What I know is that CFL players average 50K, per season while the NFL minimum $477,000 (formerly 250,000K). The NFL average is in excess of $1 million, with the mean being a little north of that. I wouldn't play in the CFL for 50K (not that I could now, but out of college I could have given it a shot) - not worth it to continues stress on my body that I am paying the price for now. But you are suggesting that a guy who IS willing to put a pro football level of wear and tear on his body for 50K a year wouldn't do so for 500K because...he is loyal to "Oh Canada"? For 50K...less than I pay a year in taxes - these guy put their bodies and health on the line and risk injury....because this is their means for making a living, and because CLEARLY they love football more than I ever did. And you are suggesting that they wouldn't do it for a shot to make ten times that?

Now...you find a single CFL player whose love for the Maple Leaf and Oh Canada exceeds his desire to provide a $500,000 life for his family versus a $50,000 life, and I will eat crow. Until then, nicely worded post, but mostly bullshit...because, unless I am wrong, is there a SINGLE CFL PLAYER who was even a 3rd round NFL choice in a previous life?

Bottomline - there isn't a single player in the CFL (with the SLIM chance of one or two QBs, but I doubt it) who could sit on an NFL bench. Not one.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

well it seems the difficult contract situation never was. Amazing that 2 teams and leagues could so quickly agree; to be a fly on the wall of several football executive offices...

It's actually not that amazing. The NFL and CFL have been cooperating closely for the last 15 years or so. The NFL has been instrumental in helping the CFL package the product and market itself. It doesn't appear as if the NFL has any designs on expanding into Canada, and the NFL seems to want the CFL to remain strong. Paving the way to let a big name player onto the club in Canada's largest market is an example of this spirit of cooperation.

mlam: I think maybe you aren't too conversant with the CFL. In the past about 15 years only teams coached by Don Matthews have featured power running games by mixing about 50/50 pass/run. It's otherwise a passing league.

To my recollection, Don Matthews' teams tend toward the "pass every down - blitz every down" philosophy. I can't remember a single Matthews team that featured a balanced attack - certainly not the Als since he took over.

 

[maurice93]

Bottomline - there isn't a single player in the CFL (with the SLIM chance of one or two QBs, but I doubt it) who could sit on an NFL bench. Not one.

Right, and that is why there is about 5-10 players a year in the CFL who do make the jump to the NFL (I would say about 30 of the players now in the league will eventually play in the NFL, be it on the bench or the still more lucrative practice squad). But why let facts get in the way of a good "bottom-line"

 

[the rusty tromb]

Bottomline - there isn't a single player in the CFL (with the SLIM chance of one or two QBs, but I doubt it) who could sit on an NFL bench. Not one.

Take the NFL cock out of your mouth for a second and realize that there are players outside of the NFL who are good enough to play in it. You do realize scouts make mistakes, players slip through the cracks, etc?

 

[RTRD]

Answer my question...

Take the NFL cock out of your mouth for a second and realize that there are players outside of the NFL who are good enough to play in it. You do realize scouts make mistakes, players slip through the cracks, etc?

....and BTW...cock remarks sound funny as hell coming from you.

Name a SINGLE FUCKING PLAYER out side of the 3 or 4 who played QB who started their career in the CFL and then made an impact in the NFL.

name a SINGLE FUCKING CFL PLAYER who was drafted above the 4th round by the NFL.

Scounts do make mistakes. Players do slip cracks. BUT NOT AFTER THEY ARE FUCKING PLAYING ON TV EVERY FUCKING SATURDAY YOU IDIOT.

Or exactly how the fuck do you think Moon, Garcis and Flutie ended up in the NFL, huh? Do you think they just drove down in their pick ups and asked "hey, can I play with you guys?"

If A SINGLE CFL PLAYER thought he had what it took to increase his salary TEN TIMES, don't you think he'd be doing everything he fucking could to do so??


Fucking moron....take to Maple Leaf out your ass. The CFL is a nice league...but the REALITY is that there isn't a CFL team that could beat the Texas Longhorns or the USC Trojans if they played NFL rules.

Players slip through the cracks...even though they are on fucking "Sportcentre" every week...wwho there stats published in major North american newspaper...what a fucking idiot...being Canadian is one hell of a burden, isn't it?

 

[RTRD]

Name them...

Right, and that is why there is about 5-10 players a year in the CFL who do make the jump to the NFL (I would say about 30 of the players now in the league will eventually play in the NFL, be it on the bench or the still more lucrative practice squad). But why let facts get in the way of a good "bottom-line"

...I keep waiting for some names...

 

[the rusty tromb]

....and BTW...cock remarks sound funny as hell coming from you.

Name a SINGLE FUCKING PLAYER out side of the 3 or 4 who played QB who started their career in the CFL and then made an impact in the NFL.

name a SINGLE FUCKING CFL PLAYER who was drafted above the 4th round by the NFL.

Scounts do make mistakes. Players do slip cracks. BUT NOT AFTER THEY ARE FUCKING PLAYING ON TV EVERY FUCKING SATURDAY YOU IDIOT.

Or exactly how the fuck do you think Moon, Garcis and Flutie ended up in the NFL, huh? Do you think they just drove down in their pick ups and asked "hey, can I play with you guys?"

If A SINGLE CFL PLAYER thought he had what it took to increase his salary TEN TIMES, don't you think he'd be doing everything he fucking could to do so??


Fucking moron....take to Maple Leaf out your ass. The CFL is a nice league...but the REALITY is that there isn't a CFL team that could beat the Texas Longhorns or the USC Trojans if they played NFL rules.

Players slip through the cracks...even though they are on fucking "Sportcentre" every week...wwho there stats published in major North american newspaper...what a fucking idiot...being Canadian is one hell of a burden, isn't it?

You're entirely missing my point. Where did I say that certain players in the CFL didn't want to play in NFL? Exactly.

Why are you so riled up?

Where did I say this had anything to do with Canadians? Do you hate Canadians so much that you have to manufacture reasons to spew your holier than thou attitude? Get over yourself. You're like an annoying housewife who thinks she knows everything, but in reality gives everyone diarrhea with her idiotic ramblings.

If you were right there would never be any CFL players being picked up by NFL teams. Like yourself, scouts and teams often make mistakes.

 

[shack]

Name a SINGLE FUCKING PLAYER out side of the 3 or 4 who played QB who started their career in the CFL and then made an impact in the NFL.

Mike Vanderjagt.

 

[slowandeasy]

Fuck.... i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply to Mlam with NFL draft choices, and my session timed out. I could not recover the info, and now I cannot remember some of the guys... But here is what I can remember

1. Fred Childress of Saskatchewan was a 2nd rounder
2. Onterrio Smith of Winnipeg was a second rounder I think
3. Kenny Wheaton of Arogs was a 3rd rounder
4. Bernard Williams was a 1st rounder
5. Lee Woodall (6th rounder) but a pretty decent NFL LB in his prime..
6. Eric Crouch was a 3rd rounder
7. RJ Soward was a 1st Rounder
8. Ricky Williams was a 1st rounder...

Over the years, there have been many high profile draft picks that ended up in the CFL...

As for Players making an impact on the NFL... why do you discount the QBs who have done well??? You are also forgetting guys like Deiter Brock who started a few years with the Rams. There was also Sean Salisbury who I believe played a bit in Minnesota and is now a broadcaster..

As for other position players... I have stopped following the CFL for years now... but I remember players like Eugene Goodlow (Chiefs I think), Mervyn Fernandez (Raiders), Vaughn Booker (Chiefs) who make impacts on their team. As well, Vanderjagdt, Dale Carter and the Kicker from Ottawa are also playing in the NFL.. Demetrious Maxie??

 

[GlavaMan]

Lawrence Tynes is the Renegades kicker now with the Chiefs.

One player who fell under the radar & used the CFL as a stepping stone was Joe Horn of the Saints. He has played 10 years in the NFL & put up some good numbers.

 

[xdog]

There's the receiver in KC...

Marc something or other...use to play with the Stamps.

How about Tyrone Williams. use to play woth Cowboys and Dolphins...came back to Canada to spend time with his son even though Jimmy Johnson still wanted him.

X

 

[maurice93]

...I keep waiting for some names...

Listen I am not a huge CFL fan. Watch enough sports news and the odd CFL game to hear the odd player having gone over for a year or two, and then came back. YOU JUST SAID A BENCH PLAYER - you never said an extended career. I am not going to name OL, DL, because frankly I don't remember names in a league I don't follow much. That being said, I have enough common sense, and enough memory to know when someone has made an absolutely retarted and factually incorrect comment.

Hell. this will often come up when they discuss the player option that is a mandatory part of CFL contracts, but that can be broken by the NFL if they want a player. The NFL provides a small amount of money to the CFL for this right to violate the option on an annaul basis. But your a smart man - you realize the NFL will pay money to get nothing out of it.


So I can't name them. I don't have the resources.... You win. Your argument is still completely wrong, but I can't name some fucking offensive lineman or safeties or defensive lineman. But your right - there are 24 fucking positions on a football team, and the only players that are going to get called by the NFL are the quarterbacks. Do you realize how idiotic that logic is? Do you not realize that the NFL has to fill out a depth charts and practuce squads at every fucking position? Do you not realize that other then World League, there is no other strong minor league in football? Do you not realize that they have fill out there depth from somewhere?

I can't name names. who gives a fucking shit. I could use my fucking head, I can watch the fucking news, I have the logic to realize there are fucking depth charts at more then one position. I realize that the NFL player agreement must exist for a fucking reason. You win though because I can't name names.

Fuck off.

 

[slowandeasy]

Lawrence Tynes is the Renegades kicker now with the Chiefs.

One player who fell under the radar & used the CFL as a stepping stone was Joe Horn of the Saints. He has played 10 years in the NFL & put up some good numbers.

Thanks for filling in with Tynes.. I could not remember his name...

Horn played in the CFL??? who did he play for??? BTW... Horn put up better than good numbers on some crappy Saints teams... I really liked him until he got too big for his britches and started showing off in the endzone too much..

 

[slowandeasy]

That being said, I have enough common sense, and enough memory to know when someone has made an absolutely retarted and factually incorrect comment.

I can't name names. who gives a fucking shit. I could use my fucking head, I can watch the fucking news, I have the logic to realize there are fucking depth charts at more then one position. I realize that the NFL player agreement must exist for a fucking reason. You win though because I can't name names.

Settle down there Mo.... I got your back, with some names for MLAM.... you are forgetting what website you are on... this is not the TLTERB (Toronto Logical Thinkers Escort Review Board)... this is TERB, where anarchy rules and common sense is often a foreign concept......

When you go to the Zoo, you are told don't feed the animals... here it should be "don't try to reason with the animals, just back away slowly"...

 

[RTRD]

Mike Vanderjagt....

Mike Vanderjagt.

...is a hell of kicker. And to be honest I would have to agree he is an impact player.

But many people would argue that kickers are not FOOTBALL players. That the skill is so specialized that a kicker could be anybody. Note: I am not necessarily making this arguement, just saying I would not be the only person if I did.

Kicker can e and are found any and everywhere. Scouting in the classic talent evaluation sense (for football) doesn't really apply. You find a guy who can kick the shit out of th ball, you sign him. No combine tests for kickers - no assessment of talent.

What I am saying here is you got me, yes Vanderjagt is a hell of a kicker and an impact player. But he wasn't what I really had in mind....I was thinking of the whole combine / 40 speed / agility testing / etc. NFL talent evaluation process. Kickers generally aren't assessed that way.

 

[RTRD]

Because...

You're entirely missing my point. Where did I say that certain players in the CFL didn't want to play in NFL? Exactly.

Why are you so riled up?

Where did I say this had anything to do with Canadians? Do you hate Canadians so much that you have to manufacture reasons to spew your holier than thou attitude? Get over yourself. You're like an annoying housewife who thinks she knows everything, but in reality gives everyone diarrhea with her idiotic ramblings.

If you were right there would never be any CFL players being picked up by NFL teams. Like yourself, scouts and teams often make mistakes.

I've taken on Canadian like tendencies since coming here.

 

[RTRD]

Question...

Fuck.... i just spent 20 minutes writing a reply to Mlam with NFL draft choices, and my session timed out. I could not recover the info, and now I cannot remember some of the guys... But here is what I can remember

1. Fred Childress of Saskatchewan was a 2nd rounder
2. Onterrio Smith of Winnipeg was a second rounder I think
3. Kenny Wheaton of Arogs was a 3rd rounder
4. Bernard Williams was a 1st rounder
5. Lee Woodall (6th rounder) but a pretty decent NFL LB in his prime..
6. Eric Crouch was a 3rd rounder
7. RJ Soward was a 1st Rounder
8. Ricky Williams was a 1st rounder...

Over the years, there have been many high profile draft picks that ended up in the CFL...

As for Players making an impact on the NFL... why do you discount the QBs who have done well??? You are also forgetting guys like Deiter Brock who started a few years with the Rams. There was also Sean Salisbury who I believe played a bit in Minnesota and is now a broadcaster..

As for other position players... I have stopped following the CFL for years now... but I remember players like Eugene Goodlow (Chiefs I think), Mervyn Fernandez (Raiders), Vaughn Booker (Chiefs) who make impacts on their team. As well, Vanderjagdt, Dale Carter and the Kicker from Ottawa are also playing in the NFL.. Demetrious Maxie??

...did any of these guys START their career in the CFL?

The implication was that "hey...there are guys who leave the CFL and go on to have find NFL careers". So...besides QBs (a specialized positon...and tere have been only two..Moon and Garcia...Flutie did not have meaningful NFL career) and Vanderjagt (Good one - definately one of the best players at is postion in the NFL...but are kickers players?) I haven't heard a name yet.

Washed up NFL guys who come to the CFL don't count - they would still be in the NFL if they could be.

Guys who got cut from the NFL because they were failures don't count - they would be in the NFL if they could be (while it does disprove my contention that the CFL has no high NFL draft picks, it doesn't prove that the talent level in the CFL is remotely comparable - I guess scouts do get it wrong sometimes)

The implication from you guys is that there are players in the CFL who are good enough that they could go play in the NFL right now and be solid players...starters or get regular playing time...and hence I and Ricky Williams shouldn't assume he will "dominate".

I'm asking for a name of such a player....one who started in the CFL, then went to the NFL and had a solid career.

And yes, we've covered Moon, Garcia and Vanderjagt....

BTW - I don't discount what the QBs have done...it is just that Q....somewhat like kicker...is a skill. Easy to miss a guy....takes time to develop...etc. Not sayin QBs aren't athletes...just saying the best QBs are necessarily the best atheletes, so the NFL sounting process often gets it wrong). Warren Moon was a HELL of a NFL QB...I'm not discounting anything...