Pickering Angels

Quick (and easy) Poll

TQM

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Feb 1, 2006
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You see a guy roughing up a woman. You don't want to get involved. You go in the other direction, as if you saw nothing. (We know this happens all the time - people witness crimes but do nothing about them.)

You find out later the woman was murdered. On a scale of 0 to 100, to what degree do you hold yourself responsible? (0 - not responsible at all; 100 totally responsible).
 

papasmerf

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Not everybody will run and hide......To value your life as more important than anothers shows it has no value to others.
 

TQM

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papa,

The question was an easy one. why don't you see if you can answer it.

I never said everyone would run away. That would be a stupid thing to say. And it's a stupid response, because it doesn't address the question in the slightest.

Again, if you did run the other way, what would be your degree of responsibility?
 

papasmerf

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TQM said:
The question was an easy one. why don't you see if you can answer it.

I never said everyone would run away. That would be a stupid thing to say. And it's a stupid response, because it doesn't address the question in the slightest.

Again, if you did run the other way, what would be your degree of responsibility?
I did answer it..........As did you.
 

S.C. Joe

Client # 13
Nov 2, 2007
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50%, maybe more, would it be so hard to call 911 and or yell to the guy to stop?

BTW..did this happen to you ?
 

papasmerf

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S.C. Joe said:
50%, maybe more, would it be so hard to call 911 and or yell to the guy to stop?

BTW..did this happen to you ?
it is when you value your life above hers
 

TQM

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Feb 1, 2006
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papa,

I'm going to take a sip of a lovely syrah - Crozes Hermitage - why don't you try rereading the question a few dozen times - these times focusing on comprehension, then think about it a bit and come back to me with an appropriate answer.

---

no - this isn't something that's happened to me.
 

papasmerf

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TQM said:
I'm going to take a sip of a lovely syrah - Crozes Hermitage - why don't you try rereading the question a few dozen times - these times focusing on comprehension, then think about it a bit and come back to me with an appropriate answer.

---

no - this isn't something that's happened to me.

I did read the question and since I do not believe my life to have more value than her life. I would get involved and know I did what I had to.

Why don't you read the answer?

What you are doing is what pollsters do. Try to word a question so as to box the respondents in. Thus getting desired results.
 

TQM

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Feb 1, 2006
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papa,

I didn't ask if you would get involved.

I asked if you didn't get involved how responsible would you be for her murder?

These are completely different questions. Different. Different. Different.
 

S.C. Joe

Client # 13
Nov 2, 2007
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bbking said:
Turns out the gal refused to show up to court and the guy got off the charges relating to her.


bbk

That happen so much here in Michigan, the law now saids the charges can not be drop. But if she refuses to show up in court :confused:
 

Aardvark154

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TQM said:
You see a guy roughing up a woman. You don't want to get involved. You go in the other direction, as if you saw nothing. (We know this happens all the time - people witness crimes but do nothing about them.)

You find out later the woman was murdered. On a scale of 0 to 100, to what degree do you hold yourself responsible? (0 - not responsible at all; 100 totally responsible).
There are a number of qualifiers: do you have a cell phone, how old are you, how old are they, what shape are you in, do you have a firearm in your vehicle or on your person.

If you can do something (not necessarily physical intervention) and do nothing then your culpability is high, if you are not able to do much then your culpability is minimal.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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Responsible for what?

Responsible for her death: ZERO. The murderer is 100% responsible.

I would hold myself 100% responsible, though, for having failed in my duty as a citizen to intervene, either by stepping in if it looked safe, or calling 911 and having police dispatched if it looked dangerous. In the real world I'd have done one of those two things, and if for some reason I didn't, I'd feel like I'd failed her as a fellow citizen.

That does not make me responsible for her death though.
 

TQM

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fuji

That's a strange answer. On the one hand you say you are 0% responsible for her murder, on the other hand you say you are 100% responsible for not intervening (in what was her murder).

Can't have it both ways.
 

slowandeasy

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TQM said:
You see a guy roughing up a woman. You don't want to get involved. You go in the other direction, as if you saw nothing. (We know this happens all the time - people witness crimes but do nothing about them.)

You find out later the woman was murdered. On a scale of 0 to 100, to what degree do you hold yourself responsible? (0 - not responsible at all; 100 totally responsible).
Depends on the situation... What do you mean roughing her up? Was he slapping her around? Punching her? Had a knife or gun??? If this is the situation, and I did nothing, I would feel at least 50% guilty. However, I am pretty sure that I would not do nothing...
 

slowandeasy

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TQM said:
That's a strange answer. On the one hand you say you are 0% responsible for her murder, on the other hand you say you are 100% responsible for not intervening (in what was her murder).

Can't have it both ways.
In this case I think you can... It's late, but I am going to make an attempt...
Being responsible means that you should reasonably know the outcome. That is, a reasonable person would be able to draw the conclusion that the situation would lead to murder... since that is not the case, you should/could hold yourself blameless. In hindsight, since you know the outcome you could say that you should have intervened.
 

train

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Less than 50%. If when you passed by you thought it was a likely possibility then 49% but most spousal abuse does not result in murder so I'd say 25%.

If it's a 100% sum game your responsibility can never be greater or equal to the perp's
 

papasmerf

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train said:
Less than 50%. If when you passed by you thought it was a likely possibility then 49% but most spousal abuse does not result in murder so I'd say 25%.

If it's a 100% sum game your responsibility can never be greater than the perp's

So you are saying you would neither care or get involved because the odd are she will be ok?
 

reboot

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Hamilton
The trivial answer to the trivial question initially posed is you hold zero responsibility. You cannot rationally take any responsibility for an event (the murder) that takes place after your involvement (witnessing a guy roughing up a woman) and there is no basis for extrapolating from "roughing up" to "murdered". Such thinking -- that extrapolating like that makes sense -- is an untenable concept. However, it is a notion that seems to be creeping into our socialization along with other Orwellian postulates like thought crime. In terms of the question posed, at the point of witnessing "roughing up" there are many possibilities open to the parties directly involved. For you as an observer to extrapolate to a worst case outcome is arrogant and foolish. Unless you are God, you have no idea what is going to happen next.

The trivial question posed does not specify any relationship or recognition. Even the idea of being a fellow "citizen" is not specified so there is not even a basis for assuming even such a tenuous relationship. You could be a UN observer in Rwanda circa 1994 -- with clear orders not to get involved -- and the "woman" a Tutsi, the "guy" a Hutu. Likewise, the "woman" being roughed up could be your mother and the "guy" could be a known -- to you -- criminal. The specific situation has a tremendous bearing on the choices you are likely to make. None of this, however, will alter your level of responsibility.

What will increase your level of responsibility from zero, is your being something other than a neutral observer to the situation described. You might be a facilitator for the "guy" roughing up the "woman". Then, you might be held equally responsible for the eventual outcome. Again, this is not something specified in the question and a specific situation would dictate the extent to which such a judgement would hold.

papasmerf said:
To value your life as more important than anothers shows it has no value to others.
Of course your life is more valueable to you than that of an other. If you have a problem with that base survival programming, you have a problem with being human. The extent to which you are willing to risk your own life depends on the circumstances and your socialization. We are all socialized to accept a degree risk of harm to self for the sake of some recognized others. It is true this base valuation creates a nominal contradiction at any level of analysis beyond the individual. Social order is tenuous even in a well established society.
 
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