Public perception of escorting?

[Questor]

How old is this woman? I had a conversation with a 60 something woman and she mentioned that she does not approve of inter-racial marraiges. One of my best friends (a great guy) is black and married to a white woman and he is a wonderful husband and father.

For sure, some older people get stuck on some very conservative ideas. If you want to find racist attitudes, you don't have to look any farther than this board though. Some of the racists are bitter old men, others are bitter young men. I don't think age has a lot to do with it. In terms of attitudes towards sex, let's face it, young people are hornier, no question. Its hormonal. But let's not forget that those 60 year olds grew up in the freewheeling '60s.

You know, I think some people can get very conservative all of a sudden when they have kids. They want to shelter their kids from things such as prostitution, and when publications like NOW are available in supermarkets and street corners, that can become threatening to the kind of values they want to instill in their kids. I'm not defending it. I'm just trying to explain it.

I'm glad that I won't have to bother with this lady anymore. I don't have time for that kind of stuff.

 

[Aardvark154]

My response is always a variation of the same thing - prostitution in and of itself isn't a bad thing, and labeling prostitutes as 'dirty' is downright wrong.

I also usually follow up with the qualifiers that there are public health issues, that the job is often mentally stressful for many women (though a good portion of that may very well be because most women look down on prostitution), and the NIMBY thing (I know I don't want a stroll in my neighbourhood).

The issue with married men going to hookers is entirely an issue with the MAN. The prostitute has done nothing wrong, has broken no contract.

And yes, I actually do espouse the above opinions. I don't have it in me to be hypocritical.

TorontoJohn you put it well.

 

[Aardvark154]

After my response, she cancelled the tentative date we had with a short email: "Hi XXXXXXX, I think I'll pass on getting together for a coffee today."

Nothing else, that's it. I am disappointed that she cancelled. The brevity of the email, along with the absence of any alternative time to get together suggests that she didn't appreciate my views on escorting. While I am disappointed, I am also relieved. What an uptight kind of an attitude.

It sounds like you've answered in your mind the questions I posed.

 

[Angela@Mirage]

Yes, I liked Dr Loves response. If it had been an involved face-to-face discussion, I might have gone along those lines. But I didn't want to sound too informed of the subject either, or too pro, as that might suggest a more active interest. I want to be discreet about my involvement.

My response by email was somewhat shorter. I said that I never really understood why some people are offended by a few hundred women who decide to make a living by having sex. I pointed out that there was nothing illegal about it. I said that while used condoms and syringes in back alleys is a serious issue in a few neighbourhoods, those are problems with street prostitution. The women with ads in NOW are not involved in street prostitution, and I said that a few tacky ads in the back of a newspaper never really bothered me.

The emails that preceded that had been an exchange of ideas around common interests. We were also in the process of arranging a coffee meeting. That would have been our first meeting outside of the work environment. But after my response, she cancelled the tentative date we had with a short email: "Hi XXXXXXX, I think I'll pass on getting together for a coffee today."

Nothing else, that's it. I am disappointed that she cancelled. The brevity of the email, along with the absence of any alternative time to get together suggests that she didn't appreciate my views on escorting. While I am disappointed, I am also relieved. What an uptight kind of an attitude.

I'll say.

 

[Questor]

It sounds like you've answered in your mind the questions I posed.

I'll say.

Its not so much that I disagree with her on escorting, its that her attitude is one of moral superiority and intolerance of others.
She is probably logged onto the website at the Church of Moral Superiority right now and blogging away..."And then this creep suggested that it didn't even bother him that this disgusting newspaper allows those sluts to advertise their services." And everyone else is saying: "Ewwww. And you almost went for a coffee with this sleezebag." LOL

 

[skypilot]

Ask her what she thinks of homos. Ask her if the naked body is beautiful? Ask her about inter-racial marriages. Maybe she does have moral issues. Maybe she is a bigot.

Yeah, ask her if she likes having her salad tossed, and if she likes tossing salad. Ask her if a bbbjcim is OK and what lube she likes for anal.
There is a problem with TERB in that being on it for a while thens to make one a little jaded and make hand jobs a normal topic for conversation with strangers.

 

[genintoronto]

Second, the lady's attitude is endemic of the stereotypes and social stigma so prevelent in society today. Perhaps she has moral issues; perhaps she considers herself a feminist and loathes the idea of "oppression by and subserviency to men" in general. I'd say that escorting is the embodiment of women's empowerment. That is, they are comfortable with and are in control of their own bodies. Furthermore, it is a means to financial independence as they own and control the means of production. In effect, they exert power and control over men by providing a service which the male of the species is powerless to resist! *lol*! I think that would cause her jaw to drop, don't you?? I think she'd be so speechless at that point you could turn the topic of conversation to anything that suited your fancy...

Women's empowerment through catering to men's sexual desires? I fail to see how this is "empowering" for women. Yes, sex work provides many women (myself included) with the means to support themselves (and their family) and gives them an independence often otherwise unavailable to them. But why is it that the only means of production that women control (assuming they do) is their body and sexuality? Why is it that sex work often remains one of the only path to independence and financial security for women? How come the path for women's "empowerment" is through sucking cocks?

And while many women in this industry (like myself) are privileged enough to be in a position where they had a real choice in entering this business and over their working conditions -- and by 'real choice' I mean that they have other viable options available to them should they want to quit or not even enter this business at all -- lets not kid ourselves here in believing that working in this industry gives women any sort of real and significant power and control over men. If they really did, do you think that BBBJ would be such a common practice?

Don't get me wrong: I like my job, it's providing me with the best financial security available to me at this point in my life, it flatters my ego, it's a lot of fun most of the time, and I work with great people and with the best agency I could dream of. But it's not "empowering" me.

The day that women will own and control other means of production than their sexuality, the day when women can secure the same kind of independence and livinghood for themselves and their family doing other work than sex work, the day that all women in the sex industry are there by real choice, the day that most of those at the top of the industry are women rather than men, that's the day when sex work may become empowering for those women who choose to do it.

You'll note that I disagree with those who believe that sex work is inherently exploitative and oppressive for women. But I do agree with those who think that in the world we currently live in, it's a farce to call sex work "empowering".

 

[Rockslinger]

The day that women will own and control other means of production than their sexuality, the day when women can secure the same kind of independence and livinghood for themselves and their family doing other work than sex work,

Wow! This is deep. Men don't have it easy either. Have you ever tried working on a construction site like I did for two Summers tossing rocks? There are women in controlling positions right now. Did you know that the HR department of every major corporation is 99% staffed with women?

Sexwork will always be dominated by women because the demand by the vast majority of men is for women (not men). Conversely, there is little or no demand by women for men (because women can get it for free).

 

[Hangman]

I agree that sex work should not be described as implicitly 'empowering', though I'm not precisely sure what empowering actually means, whether as a academic construct or in general conversation.

I don't think sex work is empowering, nor do I think it's inherently evil or degrading or immoral. (Though it can be). I think most of us can agree that it is a perfectly legitimate way for a woman to CHOOSE to employ herself, that the moral indignation of others is their problem, not hers. If a woman wants to be an SP her whole 'career', fine. If she supports herself by doing so and is pursuing other interests at school, then someday she'll move on to other pursuits. Maybe she does it because she likes it, and might as well be well paid for it.

I sometimes liken SPs to soldiers (as a former serviceman). Men (and now women) in the army are paid to follow the orders of the state, even if it leads to their own death or violates their principles. But they can enjoy it, and have full careers too. Does that make them whores?

In any case, Questor, I think you dodged a bullet there. If yours and her moral codes are that far apart, I doubt there was much common ground for any kind of relationship, platonic or otherwise.

 

[james t kirk]

It's very simple. Men view Female Sex Workers as "empowered" because they have the power over the guy. Power of the pussy. Men are weak and we need pussy, we want pussy, and we will (in one way or another) pay for pussy. Since the corollary is not also true, we see sexual women as "empowered".

 

[JohnLarue]

Tell her what she wants to hear
Give her the beef syringe

If she is destine to be your lobster, you will either
a) adapt your way of thinking or
b) adapt her way of thinking

If she is not destine to be your lobster then who gives a fuck

Do not let the truth get in the way of telling a good story and certainly do not let your convictions get in the way of a good romp and possibly a romance

 

[W3bster]

I doubt sucking cock is all chocolates and roses, but another angle on the empowerment argument is that they can demand for one hour of work the earning power of around 10-15 average citizens and easily more than the theoretical hourly salary of the PRIME MINISTER of this country.

 

[hickorysticks]

I agree that sex work should not be described as implicitly 'empowering', though I'm not precisely sure what empowering actually means, whether as a academic construct or in general conversation.

I don't think sex work is empowering, nor do I think it's inherently evil or degrading or immoral. (Though it can be). I think most of us can agree that it is a perfectly legitimate way for a woman to CHOOSE to employ herself, that the moral indignation of others is their problem, not hers. If a woman wants to be an SP her whole 'career', fine. If she supports herself by doing so and is pursuing other interests at school, then someday she'll move on to other pursuits. Maybe she does it because she likes it, and might as well be well paid for it.

I sometimes liken SPs to soldiers (as a former serviceman). Men (and now women) in the army are paid to follow the orders of the state, even if it leads to their own death or violates their principles. But they can enjoy it, and have full careers too. Does that make them whores?

In any case, Questor, I think you dodged a bullet there. If yours and her moral codes are that far apart, I doubt there was much common ground for any kind of relationship, platonic or otherwise.

Well said Hangman!

 

[Keebler Elf]

I'd have to go with the last option. First, it is perfectly legal to advertise sexual services in newspapers, online etc. (most providers do it in a relatively discreet fashion anyhow). It is only illegal to communicate for the purpose of prostitution in a public place, or to operate/be found in a common bawdy house. Prostitution itself is not illegal.

Are you for real? Do you live on planet earth?

I would love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. Any chance in hell you might have had for getting some from her went right out the window.

The look alone she would give you would be priceless.

Now if all you can get is SPs, then you probably won't care. But if you have any "game" at all you're going to look like a total douche bag.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Yes we are all very enlightened and supportive of a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. And of a man's right to pay for it.

But there is no way in hell I would ever discuss that with a woman. Or frankly, even with a guy. But a woman who makes a comment like that is simply exactly like 99.8 percent of North Americans who are not involved in the sex-for-pay industry (statistic not scientifically validated ). She is simply a normal Canadian woman who is (at least publically) repulsed by the overt presentation of this industry in a newspaper. You would actually consider arguing in favour of prostitution?? Publically? You will be labelled a pervert and shunned. Even by your strip-club going male co-workers. But the guys on TERB will think you a hero. Good luck.

 

[RTRD]

Goddamn it...

Women's empowerment through catering to men's sexual desires? I fail to see how this is "empowering" for women. Yes, sex work provides many women (myself included) with the means to support themselves (and their family) and gives them an independence often otherwise unavailable to them. But why is it that the only means of production that women control (assuming they do) is their body and sexuality? Why is it that sex work often remains one of the only path to independence and financial security for women? How come the path for women's "empowerment" is through sucking cocks?

And while many women in this industry (like myself) are privileged enough to be in a position where they had a real choice in entering this business and over their working conditions -- and by 'real choice' I mean that they have other viable options available to them should they want to quit or not even enter this business at all -- lets not kid ourselves here in believing that working in this industry gives women any sort of real and significant power and control over men. If they really did, do you think that BBBJ would be such a common practice?

Don't get me wrong: I like my job, it's providing me with the best financial security available to me at this point in my life, it flatters my ego, it's a lot of fun most of the time, and I work with great people and with the best agency I could dream of. But it's not "empowering" me.

The day that women will own and control other means of production than their sexuality, the day when women can secure the same kind of independence and livinghood for themselves and their family doing other work than sex work, the day that all women in the sex industry are there by real choice, the day that most of those at the top of the industry are women rather than men, that's the day when sex work may become empowering for those women who choose to do it.

You'll note that I disagree with those who believe that sex work is inherently exploitative and oppressive for women. But I do agree with those who think that in the world we currently live in, it's a farce to call sex work "empowering".

... I KNEW there was a reason I liked you.

You are DEAD ON exactly right. Some men like to talk about how "sex work" is so empowering for women as part of their rationalization of it. How the hell is it anymore empowering than a law degree, for example?

Some women go into sex work because they love it. Some go into because it facilitates a means to an end. Some go into it because they have few if any options. And some go into it because they literally have no choice.

To pretend sex work for women is the holy grail of female empowerment is to ignore reality and perfume the pig.

 

[RTRD]

There...

Did you know that the HR department of every major corporation is 99% staffed with women?

...you go again.

 

[RTRD]

Total...

Yes we are all very enlightened and supportive of a woman's right to do what she wants with her body. And of a man's right to pay for it.

But there is no way in hell I would ever discuss that with a woman. Or frankly, even with a guy. But a woman who makes a comment like that is simply exactly like 99.8 percent of North Americans who are not involved in the sex-for-pay industry (statistic not scientifically validated ). She is simply a normal Canadian woman who is (at least publically) repulsed by the overt presentation of this industry in a newspaper. You would actually consider arguing in favour of prostitution?? Publically? You will be labelled a pervert and shunned. Even by your strip-club going male co-workers. But the guys on TERB will think you a hero. Good luck.

...co sign.

Again...I am not exactly sure what the benefit of playing martyr for the sex industry is....

 

[Questor]

Women's empowerment through catering to men's sexual desires? I fail to see how this is "empowering" for women. Yes, sex work provides many women (myself included) with the means to support themselves (and their family) and gives them an independence often otherwise unavailable to them. But why is it that the only means of production that women control (assuming they do) is their body and sexuality? Why is it that sex work often remains one of the only path to independence and financial security for women? How come the path for women's "empowerment" is through sucking cocks?...


You'll note that I disagree with those who believe that sex work is inherently exploitative and oppressive for women. But I do agree with those who think that in the world we currently live in, it's a farce to call sex work "empowering".

I'm not sure I follow you genintoronto. Empower: to endow with an ability; enable. Its seems to me that sex work is exactly that. In many cases, not in all cases.

Does it put women on an equal footing with men in all aspects of life? Of course not. Does it allow some women to take control of their lives and to set goals for themselves that they would otherwise not be able to achieve? Absolutely yes.

Need a high paying job to get you through university without being too demanding in terms of hours? Escort part time. Single mother with poor employment prospects and no support from deadbeat dad? Escorting can be and is a viable option for some. There are a lot of women that are in difficult circumstances that can use escorting to accomplish their goals in the short and long term. Just because women are not empowered by other choices available to them does not mean that sex work can not be empowering.

For some, it may allow them to spend $500 a week on expensive clothes at the mall every week so that they can look good when they go clubbing every weekend. Some may view that as a silly and very shortsighted choice, but it is her choice. Escorting has empowered her to make that choice.

How come the path for women's "empowerment" is through sucking cocks? Because they lack other paths to accomplish what they want in life, in many cases. But that is not a reflection of how empowering sex work is. It is a reflection of how unempowered women are outside of sex work.

So tell me again, how is sex work not empowering? Have confused empowerment with equality?

 

[drlove]

Women's empowerment through catering to men's sexual desires? I fail to see how this is "empowering" for women. Yes, sex work provides many women (myself included) with the means to support themselves (and their family) and gives them an independence often otherwise unavailable to them. But why is it that the only means of production that women control (assuming they do) is their body and sexuality? Why is it that sex work often remains one of the only path to independence and financial security for women? How come the path for women's "empowerment" is through sucking cocks?


The day that women will own and control other means of production than their sexuality, the day when women can secure the same kind of independence and livinghood for themselves and their family doing other work than sex work, the day that all women in the sex industry are there by real choice, the day that most of those at the top of the industry are women rather than men, that's the day when sex work may become empowering for those women who choose to do it.... But I do agree with those who think that in the world we currently live in, it's a farce to call sex work "empowering".

ok...I never said that a woman's body and sexuality was the only means of production that women control. Moreover, many of the women I have met by virtue of being a hobbyist in fact have, and are actively pursuing other avenues toward financial success and self actualization. Among them are women in business, health care, government, research, education and law. That said, sexwork is simply a means to an end. In effect, they are able to turbo charge their earning potential as they work towards gaining a post secondary education, or to supplement their civilian incomes in their chosen field.

In my estimation, escorting is a shrewd business move on which such women can capitalize. They are smart enough to see an opportunity when one presents itself, and take full advantage. I admire them for it. In fact, I often wish that I had been born a woman, since such an option is not readily available to me as a man. - rest assured, were I female, I would be an escort, too. You can bet your bottom dollar on that one!