Protesters outside several conservative SC justices residences

[Dave58]

Should protest outside Mar a logo -

 

[WyattEarp]

But who in the north was affected in 1860 by the slavery issue? And how many in the South? Even in the South, you had to be pretty prosperous to own more than 1 or 2 slaves. And in the North, it was a peripheral issue.

I said I was pro-choice, but I'm certainly not a zealot. I think a great majority of Americans on either side of the abortion issue are not fervent.

I'm not sure I see the historical comparison between abortion and slavery in 1860. The Northern States voted for Abraham Lincoln in part for his positions on slavery. Not to mention the Republican Party was founded by abolitionists and its first elected President was Lincoln. Southern society was a very traditional, hierarchical society where the elites dragged the entire region into a hopeless war over an immoral institution.

As I said, I think the U.S. media paints a picture of a country consumed with issues like abortion. I think its rather pragmatic. Support for abortion with some time restrictions is strong. In contrast, slavery was a binary issue with no middle ground.

I suspect when it all shakes out Southern States along the Atlantic seaboard actually won't outlaw abortion entirely. I suspect support for some flexibility will inevitably come from the liberal and moderates in Texas' large cities and suburbs. Of course, the wild card in Texas is the Hispanic-Catholic population.

As far as Missouri's attempt to outlaw women getting abortions out of state, that's just plain silly. A court will eventually strike it down, but I am not sure how the law could be enforced anyway.

 

[mandrill]

I said I was pro-choice, but I'm certainly not a zealot. I think a great majority of Americans on either side of the abortion issue are not fervent.

I'm not sure I see the historical comparison between abortion and slavery in 1860. The Northern States voted for Abraham Lincoln in part for his positions on slavery. Not to mention the Republican Party was founded by abolitionists and its first elected President was Lincoln. Southern society was a very traditional, hierarchical society where the elites dragged the entire region into a hopeless war over an immoral institution.

As I said, I think the U.S. media paints a picture of a country consumed with issues like abortion. I think its rather pragmatic. Support for abortion with some time restrictions is strong. In contrast, slavery was a binary issue with no middle ground.
I suspect when it all shakes out Southern States along the Atlantic seaboard actually won't outlaw abortion entirely. I suspect support for some flexibility will inevitably come from the liberal and moderates in Texas' large cities and suburbs. Of course, the wild card in Texas is the Hispanic-Catholic population.
As far as Missouri's attempt to outlaw women getting abortions out of state, that's just plain silly. A court will eventually strike it down, but I am not sure how the law could be enforced anyway.

Here's your problem. You're not representing the truth of what is actually happening in your post.

MI, MO and TX have already totally banned all abortions under all circumstances.

If folks were all well-meaning and moderate and anxious to see the other side's PoV, we would live in a far nicer world. The issue of whether the state can interfere in bodily intergrity decisions would still be a pressing one, but the stakes would be less. But that is not America. It is my guess that the Red states will all totally ban abortions and enact provisions wherein women who abort will be charged with murder and made subject to the death penalty. Those are your GOP colleagues, Earp. Acknowledge them.

 

[jcpro]

ROTFLMFAO!! The "progressives" even managed to scare Bill. What times we live in.

Maher: There Is a Government Position on Protesting at a Justice's House 'It's Against the Law'

On Friday's broadcast of HBO's "Real Time," host Bill Maher criticized the Biden White House for its stance on the protests taking place outside the | Clips

www.breitbart.com

 

[WyattEarp]

Here's your problem. You're not representing the truth of what is actually happening in your post.

MI, MO and TX have already totally banned all abortions under all circumstances.

If folks were all well-meaning and moderate and anxious to see the other side's PoV, we would live in a far nicer world. The issue of whether the state can interfere in bodily intergrity decisions would still be a pressing one, but the stakes would be less. But that is not America. It is my guess that the Red states will all totally ban abortions and enact provisions wherein women who abort will be charged with murder and made subject to the death penalty. Those are your GOP colleagues, Earp. Acknowledge them.

Oh, how could I think we could have a civil discussion without your patented belligerance?

I have faith in democratic solutions to work things out. You live in a black and white world where every political matter is tantamount to a battle of good vs. evil. I'm more prone to believe other than fighting for a few inalienable rights most everything involves shades of grey and trying to cover everything as one-size-fits-all absolutes is imperious. I'm sorry, but when you compared abortion laws to slavery that was a very big tell.

I never ask anyone their age, but their comes a time and point where I say I hope you are young. Being old and overly-impassioned is not a good place to be in any culture.

As far as MI, MO and TX, I don't believe I said anything contrary. I think if abortion is truly a state issue, more moderate Texas voices will weigh-in. Since Roe vs. Wade, there has never been a reason for abortion moderates to exercise their political will. In most States (and countries), people on the extremes try to have an outsized impact on law and regulation. I had to look up Michigan. It sounds like there is a 1931 abortion bill still on the books. That's really not going to stand very long. I mentioned specifically Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. There are so many new residents that these States don't look or behave politically like they did forty years ago.

As far as outraged voters rushing to the Democrats, I read a CBC article that basically said the Alito leak wasn't moving the needle politically yet. Fivethirtyeight concurs. The key would be mobilizing younger voters in the midterms. Younger voters are notorious for not participating in midterm elections.

 

[WyattEarp]

ROTFLMFAO!! The "progressives" even managed to scare Bill. What times we live in.

Maher: There Is a Government Position on Protesting at a Justice's House 'It's Against the Law'

On Friday's broadcast of HBO's "Real Time," host Bill Maher criticized the Biden White House for its stance on the protests taking place outside the | Clips

www.breitbart.com

Of course, it's against the law. We are in this strange time where many Progressives only care about the law when it is convenient to their political imperatives.

The Maher video at 5:30 also discusses how Progressives have pushed the Democrats' extreme position on abortion rights. You have extremism on both sides of the abortion issue.

 

[mandrill]

Oh, how could I think we could have a civil discussion with your patented belligerance?

I have faith in democratic solutions to work things out. You live in a black and white world where every political matter is tantamount to a battle of good vs. evil. I'm more prone to believe other than fighting for a few inalienable rights most everything involves shades of grey and trying to cover everything as one-size-fits-all absolutes is imperious. I'm sorry, but when you compared abortion laws to slavery that was a very big tell.

I never ask anyone their age, but their comes a time and point where I say I hope you are young. Being old and overly-impassioned is not a good place in any culture.

As far as MI, MO and TX, I don't believe I said anything contrary. I think if abortion is truly a state issue, more moderate Texas voices will weigh-in. Since Roe vs. Wade, there has never been a reason for abortion moderates to exercise their political will. In most States (and countries), people on the extremes try to have an outsized impact on law and regulation. I had to look up Michigan. It sounds like their is a 1931 abortion bill still on the books. That's really not going to stand very long. I mentioned specifically Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia. There are so many new residents that these States don't look or behave politically like they did forty years ago.

As far as outraged voters rushing to the Democrats, I read a CBC article that basically said the Alito leak wasn't moving the needle politically yet. Fivethirtyeight concurs. The key would be mobilizing younger voters in the midterms. Younger voters are notorious for not participating in midterm elections.

Aside from insulting me, is there anything that I have posted which is factually wrong?

The MI statute might be on the books, but Roe made it inapplicable and it will almost certainly not be enforced. There may well also be the issue of MI having its own constitution which - AFAIK - cannot be interpreted by the USSC.

And yes, there are many new residents in the South. It's demographically more diverse and more urban and probably more highly educated. But aren't TX and FL even more evolved in that regard?

That's where you get into gerrymandering. MO is an urban state with 2 large cities and 1 state capital. Yet it's politics are so heavily gerrymandered that the rural religious conservative vote outweighs the educated, liberal-secular city vote. I have been predicting for a few years that TX is now so urban that it will become a purple state. So far, I have been wrong. It's still GOP-run and unfortunately the current GOP is not moderate or conciliatory in the slightest and as long as it can rely on a gerrymandered rural, conservative, uneducated voter base, it appears to be successful and happy.

In your world, there may well be urban, moderate, reasonable Republicans who are happy to compromise and use common sense. But I'm not seeing those people as representative of the current GOP, or indeed as having any influence on it. If you're referring to the GOP of John McCain or GWB, I kinda like them. Or maybe I should use the past tense "liked" because rinos are being hunted to extinction.

There is every indication that the red state administrations will enact total bans on abortion. Some have already done so. Will the purply-red states like NC or OH follow suit. Maybe not. Isn't that about as far as you can go?

If I'm being patently belligerent with this post, I'm sure you'll tell me in your reply. I can count on you.

 

[mandrill]

Of course, it's against the law. We are in this strange time where many Progressives only care about the law when it is convenient to their political imperatives.
The Maher video at 5:30 also discusses how Progressives have pushed the Democrats' extreme position on abortion rights. You have extremism on both sides of the abortion issue.

Isn't "the Democrats extreme position on abortion rights" simply the position that all Western countries currently have, incl Canada?

Heavens, whatever next?!.... State-funded health care?

 

[WyattEarp]

Should protest outside Mar a logo -

Remember that easy girl in high school who let every guy advance........Mary Lou Go.

 

[WyattEarp]

Isn't "the Democrats extreme position on abortion rights" simply the position that all Western countries currently have, incl Canada?

Heavens, whatever next?!.... State-funded health care?

I think Western Europe and possibly Japan have more restrictions. The U.S. and Canada have generally have the least restrictive abortion laws.

 

[mandrill]

I think Western Europe and possibly Japan have more restrictions. The U.S. and Canada have generally had the least restrictive abortion laws.

And amazingly, Canada hasn't dissolved into a pool of moral degradation and decrepitude in the 40 years since Morgentaler.

 

[WyattEarp]

Aside from insulting me, is there anything that I have posted which is factually wrong?

The MI statute might be on the books, but Roe made it inapplicable and it will almost certainly not be enforced. There may well also be the issue of MI having its own constitution which - AFAIK - cannot be interpreted by the USSC.

And yes, there are many new residents in the South. It's demographically more diverse and more urban and probably more highly educated. But aren't TX and FL even more evolved in that regard?

That's where you get into gerrymandering. MO is an urban state with 2 large cities and 1 state capital. Yet it's politics are so heavily gerrymandered that the rural religious conservative vote outweighs the educated, liberal-secular city vote. I have been predicting for a few years that TX is now so urban that it will become a purple state. So far, I have been wrong. It's still GOP-run and unfortunately the current GOP is not moderate or conciliatory in the slightest and as long as it can rely on a gerrymandered rural, conservative, uneducated voter base, it appears to be successful and happy.

In your world, there may well be urban, moderate, reasonable Republicans who are happy to compromise and use common sense. But I'm not seeing those people as representative of the current GOP, or indeed as having any influence on it. If you're referring to the GOP of John McCain or GWB, I kinda like them. Or maybe I should use the past tense "liked" because rinos are being hunted to extinction.

There is every indication that the red state administrations will enact total bans on abortion. Some have already done so. Will the purply-red states like NC or OH follow suit. Maybe not. Isn't that about as far as you can go?

If I'm being patently belligerent with this post, I'm sure you'll tell me in your reply. I can count on you.

Interesting that you bring up gerrymandering. It would be interesting if a State government abortion ban could be overturned by statewide referendum. Many States have the referendum vehicle for passing law.

In reality, I think life will be very challenging for Republican politicians. I still think it will be intra-party fratricide which doesn't always translate to Democrat victories. The Maher video raised the possibility that a Supreme Court ruling against Roe would hurt Republican Senate candidates in swing states. I suppose that is a possibility.

 

[jcpro]

Of course, it's against the law. We are in this strange time where many Progressives only care about the law when it is convenient to their political imperatives.

The Maher video at 5:30 also discusses how Progressives have pushed the Democrats' extreme position on abortion rights. You have extremism on both sides of the abortion issue.

This seems to be the common theme among the saner lefties, from Musk to Rogan and now even Maher. The "progressives " are running away with the agenda and leaving vast swathes of the liberal voters behind. I can certainly sympathize and understand that.

 

[WyattEarp]

Aside from insulting me, is there anything that I have posted which is factually wrong?

You're not belligerant?
You're not imperious?
You're not overly-impassioned?

For me to make an effective apology, you would have to protest the above (or another point I made) in some manner of detail. Every time I try to meet people in the middle like when I said I was pro-choice and really don't want the States making abortion law, you need to establish some form of dominance.

 

[WyattEarp]

This seems to be the common theme among the saner lefties, from Musk to Rogan and now even Maher. The "progressives " are running away with the agenda and leaving vast swathes of the liberal voters behind. I can certainly sympathize and understand that.

There are many Republicans who are recalcitrant.

However, you can see in the Senate it would not be hard for Schumer to pass legislation building bridges with Manchin, Sinema and a few moderate Republicans. He simply refuses to do so.

 

[jcpro]

There are many Republicans who are recalcitrant.

However, you can see in the Senate it would not be hard for Schumer to pass legislation building bridges with Manchin, Sinema and a few moderate Republicans. He simply refuses to do so.

Except that Chuck is wholly in the embrace of the progressives. He will not compromise. I don't care for the crazed politics on either side and I refuse to even look at their "material", but the Democrats are literally committing suicide by ignoring the issues like the economy, boarder or crime and letting themselves be replaced by those who do, no matter their extracurricular beliefs.

 

[mandrill]

Interesting that you bring up gerrymandering. It would be interesting if a State government abortion ban could be overturned by statewide referendum. Many States have the referendum vehicle for passing law.

In reality, I think life will be very challenging for Republican politicians. I still think it will be intra-party fratricide which doesn't always translate to Democrat victories. The Maher video raised the possibility that a Supreme Court ruling against Roe would hurt Republican Senate candidates in swing states. I suppose that is a possibility.

I think that it will fuck GOP candidates, especially when horror stories about rape victims who are denied abortions start to surface. We both know that the GOP is now the MAGA-idiot party and the "old' McCain / Bush GOP is dead. To get noms, the GOP candidates will have to pledge complete abortion bans. They're then going to get backlash from centrist voters in the general election.

There are going to be states like Idaho and AL where the voters will probably vote for as complete and vicious an abortion ban as they can get. Other states not so much. I am interested in TX and FL - although I suspect that the large Hispanic population might actually help the GOP here. I don't have enough of a handle on attitudes and how things might play out.

 

[mandrill]

You're not belligerant?
You're not imperious?
You're not overly-impassioned?
For me to make an effective apology, you would have to protest the above (or another point I made) in some manner of detail. Every time I try to meet people in the middle like when I said I was pro-choice and really don't want the States making abortion law, you need to establish some form of dominance.

Maybe you should just stick to debating the issues and cut the drama.

 

[mandrill]

This seems to be the common theme among the saner lefties, from Musk to Rogan and now even Maher. The "progressives " are running away with the agenda and leaving vast swathes of the liberal voters behind. I can certainly sympathize and understand that.

C'mon, we all know that Musk, Rogan and Maher aren't "lefties" by anyone's standards. Try and keep your posts remotely credible.

Maher in particular is an entertainer who employs shock and contrarianism to get views and clicks.

 

[mandrill]

There are many Republicans who are recalcitrant.
However, you can see in the Senate it would not be hard for Schumer to pass legislation building bridges with Manchin, Sinema and a few moderate Republicans. He simply refuses to do so.

This is an interesting one. What "bridges" should CS be building to bring in Manchin and Sinema?

I'm all ears.