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North Korea & Iran, two states in need of "regime change"

landscaper

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Feb 28, 2007
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The possibility that they might sell a device to a terrorist group is always a possibility, the religious extreamists in the Iranian armed forces and political establishment are also a major issue. They would not need any justification beyond "infidel" to use one.

The biggest issue is actually the fact that they have the bomb makes dealing with them in any way shap or form much more difficult. Just look at NK. They shelled SK two weeks ago for no reason beyond publicity, if they had "extra" devices I don't think dear leader would hesitate to set one off just to prove that he can. Iran is a more difficult case Kim Ill Jong is just plain crazy, the Imams are right becasue GOD tells them they are right. If they get the opportunity they will be very difficult to deal with.

It is much easier to deal with them prior to WMD becoming available.
 

Cobster

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Apr 29, 2002
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flubadub

Banned
Aug 18, 2009
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I'm curious why you think South Africa would want to buy a nuke?
They don't, but I like to remind Fuji that Israel tried to sell Apartheid South Africa the bomb, in order to put his warmongering into perspective. There are memo's out there proving it happened.
 

flubadub

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Aug 18, 2009
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The biggest issue is actually the fact that they have the bomb makes dealing with them in any way shap or form much more difficult. Just look at NK.

It is much easier to deal with them prior to WMD becoming available.
Ah, here's the real reason.
Nobody is truly afraid that Iran or NK will start a nuclear war, they are only worried that they won't be able to invade quite so easily.
As for NK, SK might want to at some time, but that's probably off the table now.
Iran, well, as one of the countries that still has a sizable oil, natural gas and uranium supply, its pretty obvious why someone might want to invade.
 

flubadub

Banned
Aug 18, 2009
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And finally, sorry to fill the bandwidth, but Juan Cole has an excellent post on the matter today.
He says:

the Arab rulers’ nightmare is that while they hate Iran for obvious reasons, most of their subjects look up to Iran as the only country in the region that is championing the Palestinian cause and is standing up to Israel and the West. According to the most recent poll, carried out by the US Zogby polling organisation and the University of Maryland, in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and other pro-western Arab states, a majority of the respondents even had a positive view of the possibility of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. Asked which countries threatened their security, 88% replied Israel, 77% the US and just 10% Iran.1 It is not that US diplomats don’t understand these facts, they have just lost all sight of reality, democratic principles and America’s long-term interests. The experiences of supporting Saddam Hussein, General Musharraf and other dictators should have proved to them that relying on undemocratic rulers would backfire, not to say that it is contrary to the democratic principles that they claim that they are championing.

In view of the fact that the United States is arming its “allies” with billions of dollars worth of the most sophisticated weapons, its protestations about Iran’s military threat sounds hollow. According to The Financial Times, the US plans to reinforce Arab military power by selling an unprecedented amount of USD 123 billion to four Persian Gulf littoral states. Saudi Arabia’s share stands at nearly $67 billion, the UAE at $40 billion, Oman at $12 billion and Kuwait at $7 billion, according to the business daily.

This is despite the fact that those countries and Israel already spend a much larger part of their GDP on arms. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), while Iran’s military spending in 2009 was $9.174 billion (or 2.7% of its GDP), that of Saudi Arabia was $39.257 billion (8.2% of its GDP), that of the tiny United Arab Emirates was $13.5 billion (or 5.9% of its GDP), and that of Israel was $14.34 billion (7% of its GDP). And whereas Iran’s military spending as a share of its GDP is 2.7% (9.174 billion: 340 billion), that of the United States is nearly 7% (1 trillion: 14 trillion). In other words, Iran’s military spending is less than one per cent of the United States’ spending.

Nevertheless, the US and Israel have the temerity to portray Iran as the main threat to the Middle East and the main obstacle to the “peace process”. There is a wonderful moment in the cables when the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, explains to a US congressional delegation on 28 April last year that “a Palestinian state must be demilitarised, without control of its airspace and electro-magnetic field [sic], and without the power to enter into treaties or control its border”. Well, what then does the Obama Administration mean by a two-state solution and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state? What is the point of the “peace process” for which the United States is willing to make so many concessions to Israel?

Practically, all US-Israeli talks show a feverish and obsessive preoccupation with Iran. They do not try to find ways of resolving Iran’s nuclear program through co-operation, talks and constructive solutions, but through sanctions ultimately leading to war. It seems that Iranian leaders were justified not to trust even President Obama’s offer of unconditional talks. WikiLeaks revelations that American officials were planning to raise pressure on Iran with more sanctions and a missile defence shield, despite making high-profile public overtures to Iran are being seen in Tehran as validation of deep skepticism from the start about Obama’s intentions. The leaked documents show that there was a half-hearted attempt at engagement, while also pursuing US administration’s “dual track” policy of simultaneously applying pressure and negotiating, with the constant refrain that “all options are on the table”.

A most revealing case about the US-Israeli approach towards Iran concerns the meeting between the Mossad Chief Meir Dagan and Nicholas Burns, then US under-secretary of state. The Israeli spy chief practically puts forward the “roadmap” that the United States must follow. It includes Israel’s “five-part strategy”. It is worth quoting the passage in full:

• Bring Iran before the UN security council to pursue a third sanctions resolution;

• “Covert measures: Dagan and the under-secretary agreed not to discuss this approach in the larger group setting”;

• Counter-proliferation: prevent know-how and technology from making their way to Iran;

• Sanctions – the biggest success so far. Three Iranian banks were on the verge of collapse. Financial sanctions were having a nationwide impact.

• Regime change. Israel believed more should be done to foment this, possibly with the support of student democracy movements and ethnic groups such as the Azeris, Kurds and Baluchs.
and finally:
One should only compare the non-existent elections in most Arab countries or even the recent parliamentary election in Egypt where the opposition Muslim Brotherhood miraculously failed to win a single seat with Iran’s defective but nevertheless meaningful and vibrant democracy. Last year’s presidential election in Iran showed that the vast majority of Iranians are anxious to put an end to their radical government and to form a true democracy. Their dream was shattered as the result of the brutal repression by the Iranian President Ahmadinezhad and his conservative clerical backers.
 

onthebottom

Never Been Justly Banned
Jan 10, 2002
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Hooterville
www.scubadiving.com
Why not Team America?
They like to stick their noses all over the world...
Are you saying that Team Euroweenie can't handle it?

OTB
 

Aardvark154

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Jan 19, 2006
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We did ask you to help out in 1939 - when it was REALLY NEEDED, but you chickened out for 3 years.
Funny, I thought that was the kind of U.S.A. you wanted to see again: disgusted with any involvement with other states, a non-participant in international bodies, a net exporter of goods, with minimal immigration, content to be behind the shield of two oceans.

From comments on TERB one would think that this would be Heaven on Earth.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,012
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
The simplest plan is to destroy the enrichment centrifuges, once they are destroyed there is no way to produce the weapons grade material.
That's only a temporary solution. The Iranians will (if they haven't already) put the centrifuges in hidden locations and continue. Eventually they will succeed. Air strikes only slow them down. Or maybe they'll eventually just buy the weapons grade material from North Korea.

If you want to stop them you need boots on the ground and their leaders in jail or in hiding--in both North Korea and in Iran.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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Iran should abandon nuclear weapons at exactly the same time as Isreal, not before. Both are rogue states. Both are whipsawed by religious fanatics.
Actually, no, Israel is a democracy with viable political parties, contested elections, courts that routinely oppose the government, a free press, and probably more journalists per capita than any other nation on earth.

Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, with unfree elections, an unelected fanatic as a leader, widespread abuse of human rights, and a history of supplying illegal arms to terrorists.
 

flubadub

Banned
Aug 18, 2009
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Actually, no, Israel is a democracy with viable political parties, contested elections, courts that routinely oppose the government, a free press, and probably more journalists per capita than any other nation on earth.

Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, with unfree elections, an unelected fanatic as a leader, widespread abuse of human rights, and a history of supplying illegal arms to terrorists.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Still spouting the same talking points, eh Fuji?
Is that why 88% of the middle east is afraid of Israel and 10% afraid of Iran?
 

landscaper

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Feb 28, 2007
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Ah, here's the real reason.
Nobody is truly afraid that Iran or NK will start a nuclear war, they are only worried that they won't be able to invade quite so easily.
As for NK, SK might want to at some time, but that's probably off the table now.
Iran, well, as one of the countries that still has a sizable oil, natural gas and uranium supply, its pretty obvious why someone might want to invade.
Still taking things out of context again I see.
Perhaps you should have used the whole post. There is a major concern with nuclear weapons getting lose from either of those two countries.
 

landscaper

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Feb 28, 2007
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That's only a temporary solution. The Iranians will (if they haven't already) put the centrifuges in hidden locations and continue. Eventually they will succeed. Air strikes only slow them down. Or maybe they'll eventually just buy the weapons grade material from North Korea.

If you want to stop them you need boots on the ground and their leaders in jail or in hiding--in both North Korea and in Iran.
Yes it is a temporary solution and at the moment time is what is needed until a solution that does not have the possibility of starting a major war with China, which is a possibility as they consider Iran as part of their influence sphere. Destroying centrifuges would stop the program for long periods of time , hiding these types of instalations is also very difficult
 

schne327

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Jul 16, 2010
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Still spouting the same talking points, eh Fuji?
Is that why 88% of the middle east is afraid of Israel and 10% afraid of Iran?
Fearing Israel is illogical. If countries don't attack Israel, they are not humiliated and therefore have nothing to fear.
 

landscaper

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Feb 28, 2007
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Fearing Israel is illogical. If countries don't attack Israel, they are not humiliated and therefore have nothing to fear.
There is a reason that a number of countries fear Isreal, and in ISreal's present situation fear is not neccisairly a bad thing. The other side of this is that Isreal has in fact proven that you need not fear them if you do not attack them.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
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Considering all that has happened in Iraq, anyone that puts forward a regime change agenda is a STUPID CHIMPANZEE. Or an evil dirt bag.
 

kupall

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Nov 4, 2005
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They also tried regime change in Korea in a bloody war 1950-52. This drew them into a war with China. It is time for the USA to say the regime in Iran is up to the Iranians. The regime in N. Korea is up to the Koreans. It is nobody's business but theirs.

It is total hypocracy for nuclear armed nations such as the USA and Isreal to attempt to limit the nuclear ambitions of other states. Let Isreal get rid of nukes. Then we can discuss Iran.
Last time I read up on the Korean War the US and Soviets were jockeying for influence on the peninsula, then the North invaded the South. Its probably time to get your facts and history right you nutjob.
 

landscaper

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Feb 28, 2007
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Last time I read up on the Korean War the US and Soviets were jockeying for influence on the peninsula, then the North invaded the South. Its probably time to get your facts and history right you nutjob.
Using real honest to goodness facts is not fair.....
 
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