North Korea & Iran, two states in need of "regime change"
- Thread starter fuji
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China isn't going to go to war over Iran. In the case of North Korea it needs special handling--China would be uncomfortable with Western armies on its border, but I think with appropriate security guarantees and concessions China would accept a Korea unified under Seoul.a solution that does not have the possibility of starting a major war with China
Sorry, Aardvark, but what I said is correct.If there is any positive to Wikileaks it is to show that what you say is total Horse Manure!
It was from an article I posted quotes from earlier from juancole.com
The poll was from zogby.
http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.cfm?ID=19346
And Fuji, this was not a poll about anger, this was a poll to answer which country do you most fear:
Most Arabs have no love for Iran, and many see the country as a significant threat. But the Arab public does not see Iran as the biggest danger in the region. In an open question asking about the two countries that pose the biggest threats to their security, 88% of respondents identified Israel, 77% identified the United States, and only 10% identified Iran. The angrier the public is with Israel and the United States, the less they worry about Iran, viewing it first and foremost as "the enemy of my enemy."
You should try reading, its quite helpful. That way you can know something about which you talk. Loser.Sure. We all know that the tyrants who rule Arab countries try and divert attention from their own horrendous failures by scape goating Israel and the United States.
The poll was taken in Arab countries that are western friendly. That's as good as it gets, the rest of the 'tyrants' probably feel even more afraid of Israel.
Oh, and back on topic, one of the wikileaks cables reveals that the the US State Department doesn't take these Israeli 'Iran is going to destroy the world' very seriously, since they've been saying Iran is close to a bomb now for 17 years. Yes, for 17 years Israel has said Iran will get the bomb any day now. Lame.
And more importantly:GOI [Government of Israel] officials have given different timelines for when they believe Iran will have full enrichment capability. In February, PM [Ariel] Sharon told the Secretary that he believes there is still time remaining to pressure Iran, but that the window of opportunity is closing quickly. DefMin Mofaz cautioned that Iran is "less than one year away," while the head of research in military intelligence estimated that Iran would reach this point by early 2007. Technical experts at the IAEC predicted that Iran would have enrichment capability within six months of the end of the suspension agreement. A few GOI officials admitted informally that these estimates need to be taken with caution. The head of the MFA's [Ministry of Foreign Affairs] strategic affairs division recalled that GOI assessments from 1993 predicted that Iran would possess an atomic bomb by 1998 at the latest.
General Baidatz argued that it would take Iran one year to obtain a nuclear weapon and two and a half years to build an arsenal of three weapons. By 2012 Iran would be able to build one weapon within weeks and an arsenal within six months. (COMMENT: It is unclear if the Israelis firmly believe this or are using worst-case estimates to raise greater urgency from the United States).
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/12/02/wikileaks_israel_on_iran
Ah, the man on the street, rather than what the government actually is thinking. Even in Western Democracies there is not infrequently a vast difference between the two. Particularly in the case of the Arab world I'd put my money on what governments officials confidentially say rather than Omar on the street corner.Sorry, Aardvark, but what I said is correct.
It was from an article I posted quotes from earlier from juancole.com
The poll was from zogby.
http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.cfm?ID=19346
China has been expanding it influence sphere for the last 25 years. Iran and more specifically the straights of Hormuz are major items for the chinese long term thinking, they would be very unhappy about a regime change inIran that was not " China Friendly" in the old sense of the term
They're among the worst offenders. Places like Saudi Arabia, nominally a Western ally, heaps on the anti-Israeli rhetoric every chance it gets. So do they all. Egypt is the most pro-Western but even there the corrupt Egyptian government likes to blame Israel and the USA for their issues.The poll was taken in Arab countries that are western friendly.
They are ALL tyrants. There are no non-tyrannical Arab governments. The closest you get to a non-tyrannical Arab government is the one the US installed in Iraq. I wouldn't go so far as to call it democratic but it's at least plausibly on the road to democracy, maybe.
China's only concern is that they have a secure supply of oil. In North Korea they want a security buffer around their border (no permanent Western troops) and they worry about an influx of Korean refugees if there's heavy fighting.China has been expanding it influence sphere for the last 25 years. Iran and more specifically the straights of Hormuz are major items for the chinese long term thinking, they would be very unhappy about a regime change inIran that was not " China Friendly" in the old sense of the term
China's a very pragmatic country and a straight-dealer. It should be relatively easy to make a variety of concessions that address their concerns and keep them off side.
It's ideologically motivated countries that are a PITA to deal with, so long as China's economic and security interests are respected China will play ball.
Ha ha ha.They're among the worst offenders. Places like Saudi Arabia, nominally a Western ally, heaps on the anti-Israeli rhetoric every chance it gets. So do they all. Egypt is the most pro-Western but even there the corrupt Egyptian government likes to blame Israel and the USA for their issues.
They are ALL tyrants. There are no non-tyrannical Arab governments. The closest you get to a non-tyrannical Arab government is the one the US installed in Iraq. I wouldn't go so far as to call it democratic but it's at least plausibly on the road to democracy, maybe.
Iraq, the shining democratic model?
Ha ha ha.
How about Lebanon?
Clearly democratic and representative of the population.
Iran, though they cheated the last elections, is also a better representation of democracy then Iraq, which is a failed state lead by a crippled puppet gov't that hasn't been able to decide who one the election a year ago.
China has never been a staight dealer, from curerency manipulation to unsafe work places to contaminated products exported. Thats just the economic side, add in trademark and patent infringment as a nationel sport and spying on everything that they think might consern them.China's only concern is that they have a secure supply of oil. In North Korea they want a security buffer around their border (no permanent Western troops) and they worry about an influx of Korean refugees if there's heavy fighting.
China's a very pragmatic country and a straight-dealer. It should be relatively easy to make a variety of concessions that address their concerns and keep them off side.
It's ideologically motivated countries that are a PITA to deal with, so long as China's economic and security interests are respected China will play ball.
The straights of Hormuz are of interest for two reasond both strategic, 1) secure their oil supply, two be able to cut off the oil supply to others if needed.
China takes the long view and views itself as the natural rulers of the planet.
True, but China also doesn't hesitate to flex its muscles in the region. Just take a look at the skirmishes with Vietnam. ASEAN is also trying to figure out how China will handle itself with the Spratly Islands dispute. If the US leaves Southeast Asia then it will go under the CHinese sphere of influence.China's only concern is that they have a secure supply of oil. In North Korea they want a security buffer around their border (no permanent Western troops) and they worry about an influx of Korean refugees if there's heavy fighting.
China's a very pragmatic country and a straight-dealer. It should be relatively easy to make a variety of concessions that address their concerns and keep them off side.
It's ideologically motivated countries that are a PITA to deal with, so long as China's economic and security interests are respected China will play ball.
Where did I say that? If you could read, with the comprehension of a grade schooler, you would see that I wrote "I wouldn't go so far as to call it democratic but it's at least plausibly on the road to democracy, maybe".Ha ha ha.
Iraq, the shining democratic model?
You are so pathetic--why not read what people actually write for a change?
Lebanon's elections are unfree and large parts of the country are under military rule. The people there enjoy next to no civil liberties, the rule of law is weak, and people who criticize the government are subject arbitrary arrest and detention. There is no real free press and the courts are subject to heavy political interference. Lebanon outside of territory subject to military rule by Hezbollah affords its citizens SOME democratic rights, but they are limited and weak.How about Lebanon?
Iran is in no way, shape, or form democratic. Those who oppose the government are shot in the streets. Although they have "elections", only candidates approved by the tyrannical government can run in them. The executive power in Iran is unelected and the whole country is subject to a tyrant "Supreme Leader". Opposition figures, if they become too prominent or powerful, are generally jailed or simply disappear. There is not even a semblance of a free press. The courts are entirely unfree and are expressly subject to political interference by the tyrant, prisoners are routinely beaten and murdered, people are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention, and all the institutions of the state have been corrupted and subverted by the dictatorial regime.Iran, though they cheated the last elections, is also a better representation of democracy then Iraq
iranian elections run on the old soviet model, you are required to vote , the people on the ballot are approved by the powers behind the throne no others need apply. Anybody who disagrees or tries to run non approved campaign is ... discouraged. The Soviets simple moved them to another suburb. The Iranians are not so civilized
Ah, so about the same as Israel and Iran.Lebanon's elections are unfree and large parts of the country are under military rule. The people there enjoy next to no civil liberties, the rule of law is weak, and people who criticize the government are subject arbitrary arrest and detention. There is no real free press and the courts are subject to heavy political interference. Lebanon outside of territory subject to military rule by Hezbollah affords its citizens SOME democratic rights, but they are limited and weak.
[/QUOTE]Iran is in no way, shape, or form democratic. Those who oppose the government are shot in the streets. Although they have "elections", only candidates approved by the tyrannical government can run in them. The executive power in Iran is unelected and the whole country is subject to a tyrant "Supreme Leader". Opposition figures, if they become too prominent or powerful, are generally jailed or simply disappear. There is not even a semblance of a free press. The courts are entirely unfree and are expressly subject to political interference by the tyrant, prisoners are routinely beaten and murdered, people are subject to arbitrary arrest and detention, and all the institutions of the state have been corrupted and subverted by the dictatorial regime.[/QUOTE]
About the same as Israel, if you consider Israel's reaction to Hamas' fair democratic election, other then having a 'supreme leader', though probably an argument could be made about the influence of religion in the country.
No. Unlike Lebanon Israel is not under military rule. Unlike Lebanon, Israeli citizens vote in a secret ballot in free and fair elections. Unlike Lebanon, politicians are not routinely assassinated and threatened with violence if they cross an armed militia that holds the country hostage. Unlike Lebanon, Israel has a free press. Unlike Lebanon, Israeli citizens are not subject to arbitrary arrest and detention. Unlike Lebanon, Israel has a system of courts that routinely opposes the government. Unlike Lebanon, Israel has a strong contingent of journalists who are free to report on anything they like.Ah, so about the same as Israel and Iran.
You are so full of shit it's backed up your throat and coming out your mouth.
No, not about the same as Israel. Hamas dispensed with democracy in Gaza as soon as it took power, seizing power it was not elected to, and refusing to hold new elections for things it was. Hamas doesn't like democracy--it now rules Gaza by gun.About the same as Israel, if you consider Israel's reaction to Hamas' fair democratic election, other then having a 'supreme leader', though probably an argument could be made about the influence of religion in the country.
Bullshit called.No. Unlike Lebanon Israel is not under military rule.
That is so wrong as to be laughable.
Bullshit called again.Unlike Lebanon, Israeli citizens vote in a secret ballot in free and fair elections
According to the EU report on the 2008 election, it was fair and valid and used secret ballots, though they argue they need to switch to pre-printed ballots.
Bullshit called.Unlike Lebanon, politicians are not routinely assassinated and threatened with violence if they cross an armed militia that holds the country hostage.
Unless you're an Arab Israeli member of Knesset who was on the flotilla, then you can be threatened with death and expulsion. Or if you're a member of Hamas you may be assasinated. Or if you're in the west bank.......
Bullshit called.Unlike Lebanon, Israel has a free press.
Ever read the daily star?
Bullshit called.Unlike Lebanon, Israeli citizens are not subject to arbitrary arrest and detention.
Unless you are an Arab Israeli.
Ever read any reports by B'teselem?
I'd go on, but I'm getting bored again.
So you think Israel is under military rule?? What a moron you are.Bullshit called.
That is so wrong as to be laughable.
Except in the Hezbollah controlled areas.Bullshit called again.
According to the EU report on the 2008 election, it was fair and valid and used secret ballots, though they argue they need to switch to pre-printed ballots.
Arabs in Israel have more rights, a better standard of living, and better opportunities, than Arabs living anywhere else in the Middle East.Bullshit called.
Unless you're an Arab Israeli member of Knesset who was on the flotilla, then you can be threatened with death and expulsion. Or if you're a member of Hamas you may be assasinated. Or if you're in the west bank.......
You are a moron.
You know absolutely nothing. Did you know it's a crime in Lebanon for a newspaper to criticize the government? I bet you didn't know that.Bullshit called.
Ever read the daily star?
You're a moron. I bet next you cite something from occupied or disputed territory rather than territory universally recognized as Israel proper. Why would you do that? Because you are a moron.Bullshit called.
Unless you are an Arab Israeli.
Ever read any reports by B'teselem?
Again, Arabs in Israel have more rights and freedoms than Arabs living anywhere else in the Middle East.
Correction, you're getting stupid again. You're making up stuff as it suits you and paying no attention to the facts.I'd go on, but I'm getting bored again.
There is no nation in the Middle East that even comes close to offering the democratic rights and freedoms that Israel does. Nothing even close.
You lost this argument, Fuji.There is no nation in the Middle East that even comes close to offering the democratic rights and freedoms that Israel does. Nothing even close.
The fact that you have make up lies to back up your points about other countries, the fact that this argument can go on for 4 pages, just shows that Israel is really no better then any other country in the area.
I'm bored of this, I'm leaving this thread alone.
You're leaving this thread alone because you have absolutely nothing to response to the point that Arabs living in Israel have more rights and freedoms than Arabs in any other Middle Eastern country, that Israel is the only nation there with fully free and fair elections and a fully democratic government, that Israel is the only nation there with fully independent courts, and that Israel has much stronger press freedom than any other Middle Eastern nation.
You are a fool and a propaganda clown. Even those who dislike Israel's activities in the occupied territories recognize Israel to be the strongest democracy going in the region.
You are a fool and a propaganda clown. Even those who dislike Israel's activities in the occupied territories recognize Israel to be the strongest democracy going in the region.
