My opinionated opinion of the garbage strike

[Mao Tse Tongue]

Well they are being reasonable, look at the union contracts being signed most are in the 2.5 - 3%, that's fair I know most of you wont think so. They are fighting to keep there sick days there not asking for more. The city has signed several contracst with those percentages this year including police, fire, TTC.

Fairness? What the fuck does "fairness" have to do with anything?

Fairness? Is it "fair" that unionized workers make way more than the average low skilled worker in any other job? Is it "fair" that I am paying those fuckers bloated non-real world salaries and half the time they won't pick up my garbage because it's not in the right place on the curb or because they're too hung over to bother?

Is it fair that a city worker can bank their sick days in 2009 and cash 'em out when they need some cash, but the average shmuck working for Molly Maid can lose their job any day of the week and have no safety net like the fat fucking unions do? Is that fair.

Is it "fair" that since I work for myself, I have no net, no nothing, so if I'm sick, I don't eat. Is that "fair". I'd love some sick days. On the flip side, when I make a shitload of cash because I don't buy the stupid group think of union laziness, is that "fair"? Nope.

The juvenile addiction to fairness that you union people have, when in the real world there is no such thing as "fairness". Grow up.

The dirty little secret of unions is that somehow they think you can extend these wages and conditions to every working person when if you did that, capitalism would grind to a halt. What they really mean is: "I want to keep MY cushy wages and sick days." Is that "fair"? Fuck no.

Parity with other unions is like one bubble saying to another bubble "I want your bubble". Meanwhile the real world marches on, poorer than poor. Jesus Christ, the unreality of these fucking unions.

 

[someone]

No it is greed, you can call it self interest if you like like people need enough to eat but when you reach the Donald Trump stage it is just plain old conpicuous consumption.

You sound like a devotee of Milton Friedman, Hayak, Greenspan, and all of the idiots who got us into this mess. I will take my economic ques from Robert Reich and Paul Krugman. These guys not on the ball enough for you? Nobel prized not working for you my economically illiterate friend?

Deregulation, now there is a genius move. OMFG you right wingers never give up do you, attempting to hide what is good for less than 1% of the population as a public good. The American deficit is composed largely of the cost of wars, the ongoing military budget and the uncollected taxes of the undeserving rich.

Don’t you ever get embarrassed at constantly advertising your stupidity. You must be the only poster on this board that could possible make OldJones look intelligent by comparison.

Yoga Face, does not the fact that you have idoits like this on your side give you some pause to wonder if there is not a problem with your position?

 

[buckwheat1]

garbage

Fairness? What the fuck does "fairness" have to do with anything?

Fairness? Is it "fair" that unionized workers make way more than the average low skilled worker in any other job? Is it "fair" that I am paying those fuckers bloated non-real world salaries and half the time they won't pick up my garbage because it's not in the right place on the curb or because they're too hung over to bother?

Is it fair that a city worker can bank their sick days in 2009 and cash 'em out when they need some cash, but the average shmuck working for Molly Maid can lose their job any day of the week and have no safety net like the fat fucking unions do? Is that fair.

Is it "fair" that since I work for myself, I have no net, no nothing, so if I'm sick, I don't eat. Is that "fair". I'd love some sick days. On the flip side, when I make a shitload of cash because I don't buy the stupid group think of union laziness, is that "fair"? Nope.

The juvenile addiction to fairness that you union people have, when in the real world there is no such thing as "fairness". Grow up.

The dirty little secret of unions is that somehow they think you can extend these wages and conditions to every working person when if you did that, capitalism would grind to a halt. What they really mean is: "I want to keep MY cushy wages and sick days." Is that "fair"? Fuck no.

Parity with other unions is like one bubble saying to another bubble "I want your bubble". Meanwhile the real world marches on, poorer than poor. Jesus Christ, the unreality of these fucking unions.

first of all as a home owner it's your responsibility to put your garbage in the right place if you don't know where call the city ( oh ya there on strike). Unions have always offered higher wages and benefits then the average working person that's why many workers have joined the union to rep their benefits.
Finially there is knowone stopping you from forming a SP union weather in Ontario or Toronto.

 

[Mao Tse Tongue]

first of all as a home owner it's your responsibility to put your garbage in the right place if you don't know where call the city ( oh ya there on strike). Unions have always offered higher wages and benefits then the average working person that's why many workers have joined the union to rep their benefits.
Finially there is knowone stopping you from forming a SP union weather in Ontario or Toronto.

You are so horribly, tragically naive. But don't worry, all the other union die hards are there with you.

BTW, buckwheat's PM to me reads like this:

"I love Miller and I love my (more than 20) sick days I have (more than 300) of them I cannot wait until the buy out"

That says it all, doesn't it guys?

 

[1963acadian]

you know if people weren`t stupid , then the GOV would be for the people, here we have millions of people writing letters, making the news , complaining about smells , bugs and animals , trashing the union people who are your friends , ...... but .... but ...

where were all those A holes when the gov was and is ripping you off , how many FEE`S can one put on a bill, i pay more in fee`s then what i use for what.

what about the GST , did we all forget , GST is now going to be combind with PST , now thats the best scam , poor students , now you have to pay , no more GST check.

do you remeber who made the news in the last 5 years , on scandles , your money was wasted , missplaced , given away and spent like it was there own.

who payed for the 407 , skydome ..ect. oh ya , they were sold off at a lose.

bailing out the car companies with your money, who couldent give a rats a** about you before , was there any mom and pop stores before home depot or walmart.

i`m not sure but , i think bob ray started the i`m broke campain , thats a long time ago , add your , check tax`s , your home tax`s, gst and pst and any service fee`s ... now tell me again who`s broke.

how long do you have to wait in line for a scan, just have your stroke and die , you can save the GOV money.

what about cleaning the snow , ha MILLER i`ve been calling your office for 2 years to do our street , and nothing , CP24 wont cover it , why.

NOW that you know the GOV doesent give a RAT`S A** about the people or you , why bash someone for fighting for there rights , how long were the 18 sick day in the contract, you hang off a garbage truck , then tell me about 18 days ,how many sick days does MILLER get , how about this , if they give up 18 sick days , then anyone in the GOV caught in a scandle or lieing to the people , loses ther job and pension, bet you dident know, no matter what the scandle is they get there pension, that alone we could save billions,

for a country that upside down right now , the GOV has projects for the select few, recetion , have you stood in line , are you caught in traffic,

l ask the GOV , please stop scaming the people , open the books .

UNITE AGAINST THE POWER.

just my 2 cents

 

[blackrock13]

Originally Posted by buckwheat1

first of all as a home owner it's your responsibility to put your garbage in the right place if you don't know where call the city ( oh ya there on strike). Unions have always offered higher wages and benefits then the average working person that's why many workers have joined the union to rep their benefits.
Finially there is knowone stopping you from forming a SP union weather in Ontario or Toronto.
------------------------------------------


You have selective reading skills, too many union pamphlets;

Less than 30% of the workforce are members of a union, that's relatively few, not many. More than 70% don't want anything to do with a union.

What were you trying to say in your last sentence?

 

[Yoga Face]

Putting aside the fact that Noam Chomsky is an idiot.

He is a professor at MIT. I guess you refer to him being a Linguisticstic Professor and not one of international studies and thereby out of his field of expertise. As to how can anyone be an expert in 2 vast unrelated areas with the one of politics being a hobby has crossed my mind as well. I just know he seems well respected but so is Rush Limbaugh so you may be correct. I have wondered the same.

If you don’t realize that the arguments you started the thread with are nonsense.

I respect that you are educated and intelligent and are the type of person I seek out to verify or disprove my naive thoughts but no, I still do not see nonsense in my belief that there is something intrinsically wrong with the rich getting richer simply because they are rich while those who do the labor that makes them rich struggle. The economics you believe in have not been handed down by the Gods. Some very bright and very educated people - of which I am not one - agree with me. Perhaps it is because they have shaken the paradigm of conventional social thought as those did who got us out of feudalism. Perhaps not. I am unsure and I am trying to think this out.

If by greed, you mean self interest or what economists call utility maximization, everything in life is based on “greed”.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Utility maximization has serious flaws such as the Great Depression, WW2, this recession (if it does not become a depression) etc as well as the extreme inequities in our country and world wide. Inequities I have a hard time accepting as a necessary given if we are to live in a free society.

I am a layman on these issues and simply point the facts our system is controlled ( or lack thereof ) by the chaos of greed and that the rich get richer simply because they are rich.

As far as the other points, they are partial factors but it would take many pages to go in detail and the fact is that those who specialize in macroeconomics and finance will spend years studying them.

I agree.

I also suggest that perhaps those very bright people who spend years studying these issues of capitalism then preach to the masses how things must be started their studies trapped inside a conventional paradigm box and never hopped out of it.

Such trapped paradigms are the history of the humanities and they existed beacause they supported the rich staying rich. I believe this statement has strong elements of truth. The computer age does not mean that we no longer follow false ideals. We will never escape this human flaw.

But these are just my simple thoughts.

I could be wrong.

Probably I am.

Darn.

 

[someone]

He is a professor at MIT

Of linguistics. I do not question his contributions in that area as I am in no position to judge them. However, I challenge you to find anything he has ever said about any current event that has not been idiotic! I am sure that he must have once said something intelligent about something outside of linguistics but I do not know what it is. BTW, if you do a search, you will find several threads on this topic in the politics section. Unless he has said something about the current strike, I don't think it connects to this thread (indeed, I don't think any part of our exchange really has anything to do with the garbage strike).

I respect that you are educated and intelligent and are the type of person I seek out to verify or disprove my naive thoughts but no, I still do not see nonsense in my belief that there is something intrinsically wrong with the rich getting richer simply because they are rich while those who do the labor that makes them rich struggle. The economics you believe in have not been handed down by the Gods.

No, it is the result of scientific method. I will leave you to your beliefs and I will stick with scientific method.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Utility maximization has serious flaws such as the Great Depression, WW2, this recession (if it does not become a depression) etc as well as the extreme inequities in our country and world wide. Inequities I have a hard time accepting as a necessary given if we are to live in a free society.

You’re basically just saying that human nature sometimes has negative outcomes. While true, I don’t see how it contributes to the discussion. Wishing human nature never led to negative outcomes is a nice wish but changes nothing. The fact is that people do maximize their utility. The trick is to try to set up rules where their self interest leads to the greater good. For example, monopolies create deadweight loses which are not for the greater good. Thus, the greed (your word) of CUPE harms society. However, if you change the rules a bit, you might be able to not only reduce the power of their monopoly but also increase the incentives of young people who would otherwise end up as be unskilled workers (e.g. garbage men) and encourage them to get an education that would allow them to make a better contribution to society.

As I am not interested getting in an argument about beliefs, I won’t respond to the rest of your post.

 

[Yoga Face]

No, it is the result of scientific method. I will leave you to your beliefs and I will stick with scientific method.

The Dali Lama said all is science. If science can prove him wrong he will change his beliefs. So will any true Buddhist

Me too

If it is truly science then you win, however ...

I read in Scientific America where they did a study with 10 scientists.
They examined their experiments and discovered every last one had flaws that were based on the scientists subjective bias for a predetermined outcome

We are all flawed so keep your mind open and I will do likewise

Just a thought

 

[Moraff]

Less than 30% of the workforce are members of a union, that's relatively few, not many. More than 70% don't want anything to do with a union.

While I do agree with some of your comments I just want to point out an error in thinking here.....

Just because 30% of the workforce is in a union it does not automatically follow that the other 70% aren't in unions by their choice.

It has been shown repeatedly that employees want a union in Walmart (for example) yet because Walmart just closes down any store that starts trying to unionize it will have frightened many workers into voting against unionization.

And as I said before some workers reap the benefits of working in a field that has competitors with unions because they get what the union negotiates w/o having to pay the dues.

 

[someone]

The Dali Lama said all is science. If science can prove him wrong he will change his beliefs. So will any true Buddhist

Me too

If it is truly science then you win, however ...

I read in Scientific America where they did a study with 10 scientists.
They examined their experiments and discovered every last one had flaws that were based on the scientists subjective bias for a predetermined outcome

We are all flawed so keep your mind open and I will do likewise

Just a thought

I always try to. Sometimes more sucessfully than others, but I always try to.

 

[blackrock13]

The 30% and 70% are not connected to the same question. They're unique answers to a specific question. The 70%+ is people who are not unionized and want nothing to do with unions in their workplace. The 30% is the estimate of the total workforce presently in unions. I'm trying to locate the study I quoted in the 1000+ posts but as of yet can't. It will give you a clearer picture.

 

[fuji]

Well they are being reasonable, look at the union contracts being signed most are in the 2.5 - 3%, that's fair I know most of you wont think so.

Actually, no, that is only if you put on blinders and look at other contracts signed by the city. If you look at other public sector unions in general the most recent ones signed have net increases of 6-7% over 3-4 years which is equivalent to what the city is offering.

For example OPSEAU negotiated a 4-year deal with a 7.75 total increase and federal employees represented by PSAC got a four year deal with 6.8%. The city is offering roughly the same.

They are fighting to keep there sick days there not asking for more.

That is a lie. Nobody is talking about taking away their sick days. It is the sick BANK that is on the chopping block, in fact their sick days will INCREASE under the city proposal--they will have unlimited sick days, just no bank.

 

[blackrock13]

Moraff;

Got the link, so check it out and get the word out.

http://www.nanosresearch.com/news/in_the_news/Canadacom August 29 2008.pdf

 

[fuji]

the gov was and is ripping you off.... FEE`S ... GST....

...

18 sick day in the contract

I am amazed that you missed the connection between your two big complaints about government. The reason why your taxes and fees are so damn high is because the government pays too damn much for labour.

Want to cut your taxes and fees? Cut public sector wages back down to something equivalent to the private sector.

 

[hotsex2]

...



I am amazed that you missed the connection between your two big complaints about government. The reason why your taxes and fees are so damn high is because the government pays too damn much for labour.

Want to cut your taxes and fees? Cut public sector wages back down to something equivalent to the private sector.

.
So true......

 

[blackrock13]

...



I am amazed that you missed the connection between your two big complaints about government. The reason why your taxes and fees are so damn high is because the government pays too damn much for labour.

Want to cut your taxes and fees? Cut public sector wages back down to something equivalent to the private sector.

Wage roll backs are hard to sell and harder to implement, but you sell a freeze to most except to the brotherhood.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Everybody but CUPE? no way.

Wage roll backs are hard to sell and harder to implement, but you sell a freeze to most except to the brotherhood.

Teachers, cops, firefighters, nurses etc all get 3% and status quo even some benefit improvements and we all decide to kick the shit out of CUPE?

Not fair!

 

[blackrock13]

Teachers, cops, firefighters, nurses etc all get 3% and status quo even some benefit improvements and we all decide to kick the shit out of CUPE?

Not fair!

Since you targeted me with your comment, I'll answer first but I'll bet others won't be far behind.

The fact that you'd draw a parallel between CUPE garbage workers and firefighter, policeman, medical staff, people who put their life on the line everyday, along with teachers shows how blinded you are to the union line. You suffered a brain cramp, if you think that's a fair analysis. you also have an overblown opinion of the qualifications of these CUPE workers. a reasonable comparison is just not possible.

Again apples and oranges. You must be getting desperate.

 

[fuji]

He isn't even right. Federal govt. workers and OPSEU workers got about 7% over 4 years which is in line with the city's offer to CUPE.