My opinionated opinion of the garbage strike

buckwheat1

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age 54? It's called an age factor it is different for each group of workers.
Ask yourself how much has an employee paid into those plans and yes I know the employeer has too. I say join one of those plans if you can
 

blackrock13

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Yoga Face said:
Boy has my thread hit the stratosphere. It is like reading a textbook


Would someone answer my original question which is



1 Rich reinvest their moola into what makes the most moola not what is socially good. A good capitalist will sell you the rope that you will use to hang him if he can make a profit from it

2 Moola makes more moola in a endless cycle of moola making until the rich own everything

3 The working man does not get into this moola cycle because he spends all he earns to survive


4 This serious flaw of capitalism that makes the rich get richer will doom capitalism and freedom when it implodes upon itself. Sooner or later even Rush Limbaugh will have to agree that it is wrong that a few own everything and those that actually do the labor have nothing.

Capitalism was nearly lost during the depression, for example


5 Unions, as flawed as they are, save capitalism and freedom by slowing down this rich getting richer cycle and the benefits they establish for themselves eventually bleed down to all workers


I do not understand macro economics but this issue of the rich getting richer is an obvious and egregious flaw of capitalism
I don't think that the 'everyone for himself' and the 'only the strong will survive' free market is the best answer, nor is the 'job for life' and 'everybody works for the betterment of all 'soft communist' way. The decline in the number of world governments who follow that communist doctrine is a clear indicator of this. Even China, Cuba, and Russia have changed their thoughts on this.

The unionized garbage option has slowly given way to the contracted out service and they're fighting for their life and they know it. Remember, only 3 municipalities in Ontario have in-house service; 3 out of 444. That's what brings forth the comments made by their proponents on this BB. The more they fight and spin their wheels, the quicker the public will make the changes and the union will lose work. Don't get rid of them or ban them. They have to stay around to remind us of how bad things could be. Let them bid on contracts, but keep the timeframes short.
 

Rockslinger

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buckwheat1 said:
I say join one of those plans if you can
These unaffordable public sector pension plans are going broke for the same reasons that the GM and Nortel plans went broke. Public sector pensions will be the next battleground.
 

Yoga Face

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Rockslinger said:
Hey Yoga, you comingled a bunch of issues but the main one seems to be the "rich" are getting richer and this is somehow bad.

First of all. WHO are the rich? Is it those two guys sitting on a yacht clipping coupons on their government bonds? Someone named Gunter (check spelling) did a survey and found that almost all "rich" people were busy either at work in their businesses or working in various benevolent societies. Very few are the "idle rich". So, almost all "rich" people put their wealth to work in a business, charitable purposes or lend their money to governments so they can pay above market wages to public sector unions.

In case you are not aware, the largest pools of capital actually sit in public sector pension plans such as TEACHERS, OMERS, etc. to fund the overly rich pensions of public sector union employees so they can retire with an indexed pension at age 54 and go on to a second career or to bask in the sun in Mexico.


The rich is hard to define but I read where less than 20% own over 80% of the wealth.



" So, almost all "rich" people put their wealth to work"

Of course they do making more money with the "greed is good" philosophy. That this capital is sometimes spent on public good is coincidental .


" the largest pools of capital actually sit in public sector pension plans..."

Three kinds of Statistcs according to Mark Twin

1 lies 2 more lies 3 more damn lies.

Genuine definitive numbers that cannnot be twisted into half truths are what we both need to see before we make up our minds

Look, Rockslinger, I say they do spend billions of money on their yachts and mansions etc and that this is a wrong spending of social labor.

As for the money they do reinvest in our society - money they do not spend on themselves or wretched third world employment - who are these "greed is good" people to decide where social labor should go? That it goes to where the highest profit is well ... when only a few own everything ... the highest profit is not the investments that will feed people

Sooner or later they will defend their social status by declaring they have been so anointed by the gods if the history of human behaviour is any indication

I am not saying they are all bastards as I am sure some do give a lot to charity and do care about the plight of others. This is not an attack on individuals but the system that allows rich to get richer simply because they are rich

That this cycle is necessary to keep freedom, democracy,capitalism and strong entrepreneurship alive is "the dogma of the day" implanted by the obvious bias of the rich class into the masses of Rockslingers so you will keep slinging those rocks and happily defend, even idolize, cats like Paris Hilton and hate the union that would support your struggle



And please do not say I sound like Karl Marx. I have never read his stuff and I would not like to live in Russia

I just see these obvious flaws in capitalism that I suspect need to be addressed in order to save capitalism itself


but then again I could be wrong :eek:
 

blackrock13

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buckwheat1 said:
each one of those plans has great investments that make them money.
So you, a staunch union supporter and member of a union get alot of you pay, banked sick day pay off, and perks as a result of capitalistic investment in the stock market; the most obvious embodiment of free market wealth.

Can you say Hypocrite.
 

Rockslinger

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Yoga Face said:
I just see these obvious flaws in capitalism that I suspect need to be addressed in order to save capitalism itself.
As bad as capitalism is, it is still better than any other system.

Western capitalism is not an entrenched plutocracy because there are too many checks and balances. Instead, it is a meritocracy.

That is why the two guys who founded RIM are extremely wealthy and in the process made many other people wealthy and provide employment and advance the social good by making communication faster and easier. It is also how an immigrant from India went from nothing to multi-millionaire by renovating rundown hotels. Then there is the rags to riches story of my boss and his brother.

The "rich" is also a living organism (no, not orgasm). The people and families who make up the "rich" are constantly changing. Ever notice how you don't hear much of the Vanderbilts, Carnagies, Rockefellers, etc. anymore? The Motts were at one time extremely rich because they sold their company to GM for GM stock. They are rich no more and are replaced by the new rich.

In a Western meritocracy one can be a Steve Job, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, H. Ross Perot, a Walton (Wal-Mart), the two Goggle and YouTube guys or a garbage collector. The door is open to all. In fact, one can be a mixed race first born American and rise to be President of the United States (does anyone think this can happen in Iran?).

BTW: If you can invent goggles that can see through women's clothes:eek: , you too can be extremely rich and advance the wellness of mankind.
 

Yoga Face

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Rockslinger said:
Western capitalism is not an entrenched plutocracy because there are too many checks and balances. Instead, it is a meritocracy.

BTW: If you can invent goggles that can see through women's clothes:eek: , you too can be extremely rich and advance the wellness of mankind.

The term "plutocracy" is formally defined as government by the wealthy, and is also sometimes used to refer to a wealthy class that controls a government, often from behind the scenes. More generally, a plutocracy is any form of government in which the wealthy exercise the preponderance of political power, whether directly or indirectly.


mer⋅i⋅toc⋅ra⋅cy

1. an elite group of people whose progress is based on ability and talent rather than on class privilege or wealth.
2. a system in which such persons are rewarded and advanced.
3. leadership by able and talented persons.




Again, your social brainwashing is showing. This newly created wealth is limited to a few superstars - kinda like playing in the NHL just because everyone has the right to try does not mean the system is fair when you do not make it to the Bigs

the working common geek is supposed to look up to these few rich while struggling to survive and feel that all is right with our country because these extremely few were once like him ?

this wealth creates more wealth cycle is clearly wrong and unfair and capitalism collapses upon itself in a predictable cycle but the severity of this collapse is not predictable when the chaos of a uncontrolled market ruled by greed is allowed to be the force that describes the trajectory of the human race
 
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Rockslinger

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Yoga Face said:
the working common geek is supposed to look up to these few rich while struggling to survive and feel that all is right with our country because these extremely few were once like him ?
In a Western meritocracy, even the "poor" are rich. The wealthy people (you can be rich too if you have the talent) pull everybody up the ladder. Where else can a garbage collector make $80,000 a year with 18 bankable sick days? There are 2 billion men who would give their left testicle to live in Canada and not in Iran or 100 other countries.
 

Yoga Face

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Rockslinger said:
In a Western meritocracy, even the "poor" are rich. The wealthy people (you can be rich too if you have the talent) pull everybody up the ladder. Where else can a garbage collector make $80,000 a year with 18 bankable sick days? There are 2 billion men who would give their left testicle to live in Canada and not in Iran or 100 other countries.

Wrong. You have limited your view to Toronto. You have not seen some of the extreme poverty in Canada and USA and it is getting worse and it is unions that are their salvation.

At $24 per hour I do not think they make $80K unless they put in a 60 hour week but they make this money because of the Union and it is the unions that we are discussing - remember?

A billion people are starving now because of the policies of USA , Canada the G6 the World Bank and the IMF have doubled the cost of food. Just a fraction of this bail out money that has gone to the rich world wide could feed them. But just as important these countries that are starving are not a meritocracy but a dictatorship of the corrupt that all to often are supported by corporations that seek stability so they can exploit the riches of that country. Oil cartels are the worse example but think of diamond mines and others as well


Look, I agree we are fortunate to live here. That is not the argument . Why it got this way and how to keep us this way and improve this country is.

I fear the future of a system that has cyclical collapses that are unpredictable in severity and that has an eternal cycle of the rich getting richer simply because they are rich and that these rich describe the trajectory of our civilization through the chaos of the greed of investment.

I celebrate entrepreneurship and that intelligence and hard work are rewarded but do not mistake singular good elements that are the residue of cyclical greed as the reason to celebrate the imbalances of our system.
 
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Extreme poverty is not the result of the lack of unions. This is typical stupidity that the Left feeds itself to protect their racket.

Enlightened Capitalism is the answer, not unions. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Capitalism as it's currently structured just leads to a super tiny class of rich and misery for the rest of the world. Greed and corporate rewards have brought the system to its knees.

But no form of New Capitalism will include unions as they're currently structured. Unions have to accept that they are irrelevant and most people find them a hinderance to innovation. Unions don't breath new air, only stale (and smoke-filled) air that leads to entropy. No organization worth its salt will grow under the deadweight of unions.

You're right Capitalism has to change, but it has nothing to do with unions. It will be something else entirely. I've spent tons of time on The Left, and it's as bankrupt as The Right. Certainly no one with a brain thinks that unions provide any of solutions needed going forward.
 

Yoga Face

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Mao Tse Tongue said:
Extreme poverty is not the result of the lack of unions. This is typical stupidity that the Left feeds itself to protect their racket.

Enlightened Capitalism is the answer, not unions. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Capitalism as it's currently structured just leads to a super tiny class of rich and misery for the rest of the world. Greed and corporate rewards have brought the system to its knees.

But no form of New Capitalism will include unions as they're currently structured. Unions have to accept that they are irrelevant and most people find them a hinderance to innovation. Unions don't breath new air, only stale (and smoke-filled) air that leads to entropy. No organization worth its salt will grow under the deadweight of unions.

You're right Capitalism has to change, but it has nothing to do with unions. It will be something else entirely.

This sounds like Utopia. Until Utopia comes it is unions are needed perhaps to save capitalism itself.

New Capitalism. Does this mean that the workers have a direct input into how the society that they have built with their labor is controlled and how this wealth is distributed?

Gimme a "S"
Gimme a "O"
Gimme a "C"
Gimme a "I"
Giime a "A"
Gimme a "L"
Gimme another "I"
Gimme another "S"
Gimme a "M"

What does that spell?
 

someone

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I thought the article below was an interesting analysis. However, I think that Gee misses an important point. Even if it is likely that the union has lost, it will be impossible for the union leadership to end the strike soon. It would mean that the union leadership would have to admit to their members that they recommended a strike and the resulting loss of pay for nothing. I think that a likely outcome might be for the strike to go on for a few weeks and for the province to eventually force a second strike vote after they think it is likely that a majority of workers want to go back to work. This would not necessarily result in a new contract but it would end the strike.

“Marcus Gee
It's time for the unions to admit they've lost
Nearly three weeks in, it's obvious Torontonians are coping and Mayor David Miller is winning. So why are the workers persisting?
In a strike, as in a war, you never quite know which way things will go once hostilities commence. But nearly three weeks in, there is no escaping it – the unions are losing this strike and Mayor David Miller is winning.
The purpose of the strike is to make life in the city so unpleasant that residents will pressure Mr. Miller to settle on the unions' terms. Judged against that aim, it is failing miserably. Toronto is coping quite nicely, thank you.
Despite the work stoppage by 24,000 city employees, life in the city goes on. The strike is a nuisance, but nothing more. Most residents are taking it in stride. Their anger, if any, is directed mostly at the strikers, who made the fatal mistake of walking out in defence of generous benefits at a time when tens of thousands of Torontonians are losing their jobs.
The unions' big club, garbage collection, has been snatched away by the city's well-planned and efficient performance under trash chief Geoff Rathbone. The 19 temporary drop sites where residents can take their overflow garbage are functioning well. The lineups and angry exchanges that marked the first couple of days of the strike have all but disappeared. At the one site where there was serious tension with residents, Christie Pits, an injunction ended a blockade.
The city's medical officer of health, David McKeown, has handed down cleanup orders for six temporary dump sites, but he sees no overall threat to public health so far. That makes this strike different from the 16-day walkout in 2002, when a health warning helped persuade the provincial government to pass a back-to-work order.
Learning from that experience, Mr. Rathbone has deployed his non-union staff to crack down on illegal dumping. As a result, you don't see the ugly heaps of refuse in parks and at transfer stations that disfigured the city in 2002. The city's drive to get residents to separate their garbage has helped too. People can keep their recycling stuff and other dry trash almost indefinitely, storing the smelly wet garbage separately and carting it to the drop-off points every week or two if they need to. As Premier Dalton McGuinty put it, the garbage in his garage is starting to stink, but “it's not the end of the world.” That neatly sums up the city's general attitude to the strike: It's a pain, but we'll live.
Of course, some people are hurting: the parents whose city-run daycares are on strike, the lifeguards or day-camp counsellors who are out of a summer job, the teenagers in troubled neighbourhoods whose recreation programs have been cancelled.
But in many parts of the city, you would barely know there was a strike on. Showing fine community spirit, residents are banding together to hire dumpsters or haul each other's garbage away. Between people who live in apartments or condominiums (which have private collection) and residents of Etobicoke (where officials wisely contracted out garbage collection years ago), about half the city is still getting its garbage picked up regardless of the walkout.
All of this means that there is no great pressure on Mr. Miller to give in. To the contrary, he said this week, “I can tell you what I'm hearing from Torontonians is: Keep it up.”
Mr. McGuinty says he would prefer to stay out of it and neither his Conservative nor his NDP opponent is calling for provincial intervention. Even on city council, no one is crying out for a quick settlement at any cost. The most they can do is whine about how the mayor hasn't called a council meeting.
Put simply, Mr. Miller is not wearing this one. The unions are. Though their leaders are still striking a defiant, even militant, note, they are leading a cause that was lost in its first days. Now they face an agonizing decision. To climb down and make concessions after mounting the barricades would be bitter indeed. But to carry on for week after week with a strike that is failing to hurt the employer, in the midst of a severe recession, in the face of a hostile public, would be sheer folly. As Mr. Miller put it, “Enough is enough.””

On an unrelated point:
Yoga Face said:
Again, your social brainwashing is showing.
I always find it funny when those who have been most indoctrinated with propaganda accuse others of having been brainwashed. A couple of times you have pointed out that most posters have not bothered responding to the points of your original post. I would suggest that is because they don’t see the point. You believe what you want to believe and arguing about it would as much a waste of time as arguing with a priest about the existence of god.
 
Sep 8, 2003
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Fucking eh! Fucking EH!

"Most residents are taking it in stride. Their anger, if any, is directed mostly at the strikers, who made the fatal mistake of walking out in defence of generous benefits at a time when tens of thousands of Torontonians are losing their jobs.

The unions' big club, garbage collection, has been snatched away by the city's well-planned and efficient performance under trash chief Geoff Rathbone. The 19 temporary drop sites where residents can take their overflow garbage are functioning well. The lineups and angry exchanges that marked the first couple of days of the strike have all but disappeared"


SO TRUE!
 
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Yoga Face said:
This sounds like Utopia. Until Utopia comes it is unions are needed perhaps to save capitalism itself.

New Capitalism. Does this mean that the workers have a direct input into how the society that they have built with their labor is controlled and how this wealth is distributed?

Gimme a "S"
Gimme a "O"
Gimme a "C"
Gimme a "I"
Giime a "A"
Gimme a "L"
Gimme another "I"
Gimme another "S"
Gimme a "M"

What does that spell?
You're naive. I won't bother with you anymore. But unions will have nothing to do with the re-tooling of Capitalism. Workers will have plenty. When you make the distinction, you will have grown up--economically speaking. ;)

The irony is that you and I agree on your premise--that Capitalism enriches few and enslaves many. But the union claptrap means you lost me. Wonder why?
 

blackrock13

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Like I've said unions have to stay around so we have a baseline to work from and know how bad it can be.
 

Yoga Face

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someone said:
I always find it funny when those who have been most indoctrinated with propaganda accuse others of having been brainwashed.
I agree. It is extremely difficult to look at things objectively. Our minds are too small.




The city saves money the longer the strike goes on. The union has shown a dearth of creativity in their effete and weak tactics.
 
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Yoga Face said:
I agree. It is extremely difficult to look at things objectively. Our minds are too small.




The city saves money the longer the strike goes on. The union has shown a dearth of creativity in their effete and weak tactics.
One more point before I go out and enjoy the beautiful day.

It has nothing to do with tactics. It's their very raison d'etre which is the problem: bullying governments into protecting wages and benefits that are unrealistic to similarly skilled non-union people. It really is that simple.
 
Ashley Madison
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