Most recent articles on prostitution related laws, opinions, comments

wilbur

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Do you think things are really going to be that much different? One thing I wonder about is if people on here are going to be much more suspicious of new members.
As I see it, a Nordic model in Canada would be unenforceable in Canada. We have the Charter, which prevents unreasonable search and seizure, which they don't in Sweden. In order to prosecute a client in Sweden, they have to forcibly (against her will) collect evidence from the prostitute who is supposed to be an innocent person, or force her to testify by threatening her with prosecution of 'anything else related to prostitution', such as living in a bawdy house and living off the avails (sharing an apartment with another prostitute and both can be charged with living off the avails of each other), which is still illegal in Sweden. Despite promises of getting prostitutes into another line of work, prostitutes are shunned out of the much of the vaunted Swedish social safety net. Radical feminists consider them to be 'bad' people. They can't pay taxes because their income tax applications are rejected as their work is not a recognized profession, but they can still be charged with tax evasion for not declaring their income.

Besides, if a prostitute advertised sex for sale, a section of the CCC says that it is a criminal offense to counsel another person to break the law; unless they change that and allow prostitutes a waiver to allow blatant advertising with the caveat at the bottom of the page that warns that buying sex from this person is a criminal offense. How twisted is that?. It would be like allowing the legal sale of pot and have the buyer charged with buying as he left the store.

The Nordic model is the product of radical feminism having taken power in Sweden, a minor country in Europe, and having emasculated men. Too much irrationality and not enough brains. Transering the Nordic model to Canada will transfer idiocy from one country to another. Another nail in the Conservative electoral coffin for me.
 

explorerzip

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Jul 27, 2006
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Despite promises of getting prostitutes into another line of work, prostitutes are shunned out of the much of the vaunted Swedish social safety net.
I think you've got the problem nailed in the head here. How can the government profess "equal" rights for prostitutes when they are "promised" a way out? If they're truly promoting equal rights, shouldn't everyone have a way out of their current job if it's dangerous, undesirable or they just plain don't like it?
 

explorerzip

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They don't need that to force her to testify. One simple question 'did you have sex with thus guy for money or not' if she tells the truth she's safe , otherwise she would be charged with lying to Law enforcement . Which safer option you think she would choose ?
I'm no law expert, but she could plead Canada's equivalent to the 5th amendment.
 

Fred Zed

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Do you think things are really going to be that much different? One thing I wonder about is if people on here are going to be much more suspicious of new members.
People will manage same way they managed before. Prostitution in Canada has never been been 100% legal. However, the fact some members are considering quitting the hobby because of the new laws is exactly what the Cons. want. So in that sense the Nordic law will work because of the fear factor. But I highly doubt thousands of men will be crimininally charged after the Nordic law is passed. As far as TERB is concerned, if we get even one Nordic law related request for a member's info from an officer we will move the site out of Canada where Canadian laws do not apply. Other than dropping the .ca part of the domain, members won't even notice anything has changed.
 

Serpent

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Jan 1, 2006
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People will manage same way they managed before. Prostitution in Canada has never been been 100% legal. However, the fact some members are considering quitting the hobby because of the new laws is exactly what the Cons. want. So in that sense the Nordic law will work because of the fear factor. But I highly doubt thousands of men will be crimininally charged after the Nordic law is passed. As far as TERB is concerned, if we get even one Nordic law related request for a member's info from an officer we will move the site out of Canada where Canadian laws do not apply. Other than dropping the .ca part of the domain, members won't even notice anything has changed.
The server is just where the content is hosted. As long as the principals, the money and everything else that's tangible is in Canada, Canadian laws apply to them.

Moving the server to Venezuela would be cool if you were totally anonymous and the monies associated with this site was going into a Swiss account where Canadian jurisdiction wouldn't apply.
 

Fred Zed

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The server is just where the content is hosted. As long as the principals, the money and everything else that's tangible is in Canada, Canadian laws apply to them.

Moving the server to Venezuela would be cool if you were totally anonymous and the monies associated with this site was going into a Swiss account where Canadian jurisdiction wouldn't apply.
I am not talking about hiding money off-shore. I am talking about releasing TERB member info to Canadian LE. Your understanding of Internet law is different from mine. I know of many hosting companies in other parts of the world that will not release information to Canadian authorities, no web host outside Canada needs to follow requests from Canadian Nordic Law enforcement, they only need to adhere to local law.
 

D-Fens

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2006
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Actually the would need to keep TERB website on to track incall locations, make a fake appointment to know the address and arrest the clients at the incall locations as they do in Sweden.
Incalls are already illegal, they could have done stuff like that already if they wanted to and why don't the states do that then? It's illegal over there and they have review boards, just like this one.
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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They don't need that to force her to testify. One simple question 'did you have sex with thus guy for money or not' if she tells the truth she's safe , otherwise she would be charged with lying to Law enforcement . Which safer option you think she would choose ?
I think that would be forcing someone to testify if you threaten them with prosecution.

In Canada, we have the right to remain silent. Police cannot coerce testimony from an innocent person; they could threaten to charge them with another offense if they don't cooperate, but that would make a mockery of the [new] principle that sex-workers are victims (but that is exactly what is happening in Sweden, as sex workers are threatened with every else that is illegal about the sex industry if they don't 'cooperate'.... hypocrisy at the utmost).

In everyday life, if you see something and don't want to get involved, you just say 'sorry officer, I didn't see anything'. In this case, 'no officer, I just gave him a massage'. If the cop wants to enter the premises to check for evidence, the provider just asks for a warrant to enter premises. A police officer does not have the right to enter premises any more than you have a right to enter a police officer's home. And there is no hot pursuit in this case or imminent threat to life.

Only thing I can see is obstructing justice. If the client runs one way and the sex worker says to police that he ran the other way, that's obstruction of justice.

Prosecution of prostitutes could still occur if MacKay reinstitutes the common bawdy house law. It could be that bawdy houses become illegal again, in which case sex-workers can legally sell sex, but cannot legally do it anywhere. That is the situation in Sweden: selling sex is legal, but everything else related is illegal; hence prostitutes are victimized anyway, and go underground where it's more dangerous.
 

wilbur

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The bill of victims introduced by Harper Government last year forces victims to testify against their spouses , so this scenario isn't against the canadian law as sex workers would be considered victims

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/victims-bill-of-rights-would-compel-spouses-to-testify-1.2596307
The new section (52) only refers to married people. "No person is incompetent or uncompellable to testify for the prosecution by reason only that they are married to the accused".

Which means that there can be no objection to have a victim testify just because they are married to the accused.

If anybody can point to another section that 'forces' a spouse to testify against her husband, I would be interested to see it, as I didn't find it.

In any case, suppose the Crown gets the spouse on the witness stand, and she denies anything having taken place: would they throw her in jail? So much for being a victim.

It doesn't make any sense to prosecute a victim who doesn't want to [alledgedly] cooperate.
 

wilbur

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I think Mackay wants to keep that law because today he stressed that a majority of respondents to survey were against legal brothels ( 62% replied to no to the biased question about profiting from prostitution )
The government cannot legislate by poll. The government has to legislate according to the constitution and the Charter of Rights, because the Supreme Court can throw out just about any law that doesn't conform to the highest law of the land. Seems that MacKay is a lot more of an amateur than I ever thought!.
 

wilbur

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I think you've got the problem nailed in the head here. How can the government profess "equal" rights for prostitutes when they are "promised" a way out? If they're truly promoting equal rights, shouldn't everyone have a way out of their current job if it's dangerous, undesirable or they just plain don't like it?
In today's utopian society, everybody is happy with their jobs. Prostitution is not a real job and is violence against women even if they don't realise it. In fact, those against prostitution want to rescue people against their will only because they feel morally superior to them.

What's the definition of 'a way out'? A job at Tim Horton's ? a personal care attendant? Free university tuition and a job as a rocket scientist?

There's a reason why a lot of people are in this business, and it can be relatively easy money.

Unless the government offers them alternatives that pay them as before, they will not prevent people from continuing with or returning to prostitution.

Where real human slavery and trafficking of women against their will takes place in Eastern Europe, many of those who are eventually rescued from the brothels of Turkey and Israel return home, only to turn around and go back there voluntarily because it's better than slopping pigs and pulling teats on the peasant farm back home.

Wanting to save fallen women is not new. But it's naïve as hell and reeks of moral superiority.
 

Serpent

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Jan 1, 2006
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I am not talking about hiding money off-shore. I am talking about releasing TERB member info to Canadian LE. Your understanding of Internet law is different from mine. I know of many hosting companies in other parts of the world that will not release information to Canadian authorities, no web host outside Canada needs to follow requests from Canadian Nordic Law enforcement, they only need to adhere to local law.
I agree with that part. But you as the owner/operator, fall under Canadian jurisdiction, no? :)

I mean, a site operator can't detach themselves from their website and claim no liability. Especially, if it's a revenue generating website.


All in all - it will be all about how hard the Government would want to go after people and how persistent they are in harassing sexwork-associated business owners like yourself who have customer data.

PS: I also thought of something. Why would they even need to go after you to get an IP? Just put something like Carnivore at the ISP head end to capture all ISP traffic to Terb.Venezuela. Excessive? Expensive? Realistic, probably not. But that's' how the FBI does it.
 

explorerzip

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Jul 27, 2006
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There's a reason why a lot of people are in this business, and it can be relatively easy money.
The understatement of the century. As long as there's money involved, people will choose to do things not just prostitution that are dangerous and morally questionable. You are right that the government cannot guarantee anyone a good paying job yet alone one that pays as much as prostitution does.
 

Fred Zed

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I agree with that part. But you as the owner/operator, fall under Canadian jurisdiction, no? :)

I mean, a site operator can't detach themselves from their website and claim no liability. Especially, if it's a revenue generating website.


All in all - it will be all about how hard the Government would want to go after people and how persistent they are in harassing sexwork-associated business owners like yourself who have customer data.

PS: I also thought of something. Why would they even need to go after you to get an IP? Just put something like Carnivore at the ISP head end to capture all ISP traffic to Terb.Venezuela. Excessive? Expensive? Realistic, probably not. But that's' how the FBI does it.
You're mistaken. Just as an example until quite recently some companies were choosing to host their sites in Canada because Canadian internet piracy laws were considered to be relatively lax. A Webhost outside Canada need not even reveal who the website owner is to Canadian Authorities. Police in Canada just can't install a pipe or switch at a Canadian ISP
to check incoming and outgoing traffic -that's just plain unrealistic.
 

canada-man

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Jun 16, 2007
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Laws targeting ‘johns’ only increase dangers to prostitutes, report warns

OTTAWA—A new report by a coalition of Canadian prostitutes warns the Conservative government that proposals to target “johns” — the clients who buy sexual services — will only increase danger to prostitutes and eventually be found unconstitutional.

The Vancouver-based Pivot Legal Society, along with a group from downtown eastside Vancouver called Sex Workers United Against Violence issued the report Tuesday.

It draws on a newly published peer reviewed report in British Medical Journal Open, and cites research by the Gender and Sexual Health Initiative (GSHI) of the B.C. Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS and the University of British Columbia.

The British journal study said its findings “suggest that criminalization and policing strategies that target clients reproduce the harms created by the criminalization of sex work, in particular, vulnerability to violence and HIV/STIs (sexually-transmitted infections).” Its study supports “decriminalization of sex work to ensure work conditions that support the health and safety of sex workers in Canada and globally.”

The Pivot Legal Society report, released to Torstar News Service, points to the Vancouver Police Department which has gradually, over the past five years, shifted away from arresting street-based sex workers while targeting the arrests of “clients” or “johns.”

Vancouver police essentially adopted a new policy that is similar to the so-called Nordic model expected to be proposed this week by the federal Conservative government in response to December’s Supreme Court ruling in the Bedford case.

In January 2013 Vancouver cops came up with new guidelines that focus on ending demand for prostitution. Those guidelines saw police officers shift to greater use of undercover stings and patrols of areas where the street-based sex trade occurs to target the buyers, not the sellers, of sex services.

But prostitutes in Vancouver report that while they welcomed fewer police arrests of women, the overall impact of the change is to create dangerous working conditions for sex workers, and expose them to the same kinds of “significant safety and health risks” that concerned the Supreme Court in the Bedford ruling.

According to the report, those include “displacement to isolated spaces; inability to screen clients or safely negotiate terms of transactions; and inability to access police protection.”

The Canadian advocates say the consensual sex trade should be decriminalized while criminal law should focus on human traffickers or anyone who coerces or exploits prostitutes into selling their bodies. It should also be used to target those who would rob, assault or otherwise harm prostitutes, they said.

They argue the findings of the British journal mirror findings from Sweden and other countries that have instituted a ban on the purchase of sexual services.

In December, Canada’s Supreme Court in the Bedford case struck down as unconstitutional three key criminal laws. Those prohibited communicating for the purposes of prostitution, living on the avails of prostitution and operating a bawdy house. The high court gave the government 12 months to draft a new law.

Conservative Justice Minister Peter MacKay gave notice Tuesday he would introduce a new bill Wednesday or Thursday.

However the advocates of decriminalization reported the same kinds of harms would result if new laws target clients.

“The vast majority of sex workers who took part in the GSHI/UBC research reported that when the police target clients, both clients and sex workers have to take steps to avoid police detection. They move out of familiar and populated areas to areas where sex workers face greater risk because of the degree of isolation.”

“They are forced to rush or forgo client screening and negotiation of the terms of a transaction. This directly increases the risk of violence, abuse and HIV.”

Much of their first interaction with a potential client is “focused on convincing them that they are not an undercover police officer rather than screening for safety or negotiating the terms of the transaction.”

“The evidence from Sweden and Norway indicates that prohibiting the purchase of sexual services does not result in increased safety and protection for sex workers, nor does it eliminate prostitution. In fact, violence and stigma against sex workers increases.”

In Vancouver, where prostitutes became the prime target of serial killer Robert Pickton, streetwalkers reported “some improvement” in the way they felt Vancouver police officers treated prostitutes, but the stigma remains. As a result the relationship between police and prostitutes is still adversarial and counterproductive — with many reluctant to seek police protection, the report said.

“In our opinion, such a law would not withstand constitutional scrutiny,” the report said. “It is clear that criminalizing the purchase of sexual services will recreate the same devastating harms as the current prostitution laws.

“With this knowledge, it would be unconscionable to enact such a law and then wait for a constitutional challenge to wind its way through the courts. Sex workers need immediate access to safer working conditions.”

The report makes four recommendations:

- Calling on Ottawa to not to prohibit the purchase or sale of sexual services by adults.

- Ensuring prostitutes are “in a leadership position in all future law and policy development.”

- Using existing criminal laws to target violence and abuse in the sex industry.

- Investing in government programs to support health and safety for prostitutes including “access to adequate financial support, safe housing, educational opportunities, mental health supports, drug treatment and harm reduction services and culturally-appropriate resources for themselves and their families.”

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/105...increase-dangers-to-prostitutes-report-warns/
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
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The doctor is in
Prosecution of prostitutes could still occur if MacKay reinstitutes the common bawdy house law. It could be that bawdy houses become illegal again, in which case sex-workers can legally sell sex, but cannot legally do it anywhere. That is the situation in Sweden: selling sex is legal, but everything else related is illegal; hence prostitutes are victimized anyway, and go underground where it's more dangerous.
How can he? The SCC struck down the part of prostitution law which currently makes brothels illegal.
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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How can he? The SCC struck down the part of prostitution law which currently makes brothels illegal.
Parliament can make any laws it wants. It takes a court challenge to strike down those laws that don't meet the standards of the Charter. But that takes literally years.

Harper has had a couple of run-ins with the SCC. He's complained that the courts should not overturn legislation produced by the 'people', or elected politicians.

Interesting to see how it develops: either he wants to butt heads again (reinstitute thhe struck down sections), or else sound more conciliatory and respect the spirit of the SCC decision.

They could revive the brothels secton of the criminal code with certain provisons that make sex workers safe, such as making them illegal only for buyers of sex. That woudl protect sex workers all-right... and starve them to death at the same time.
 
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