Pirates Acquire Spencer Horwitz From Guardians
The Pirates announced the acquisition of first baseman/second baseman Spencer Horwitz from the Guardians for a three-player package: righty Luis …
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Poor Spencer being used while everyone gets what they want. And brilliant Ross acquires our 40th second base on the roster with no power. Great thinking Ross…Pirates Acquire Spencer Horwitz From Guardians
The Pirates announced the acquisition of first baseman/second baseman Spencer Horwitz from the Guardians for a three-player package: righty Luis …
Philip
The good news is that he's going to get a good shot to start everyday.Poor Spencer being used while everyone gets what they want. And brilliant Ross acquires our 40th second base on the roster with no power. Great thinking Ross…
Philip
If I'm him I view this as a good career move.
I'm not sure what to think. Gimemez seems promising, but why would Cleveland let him go? The thing that struck me was the fact that both guys the Jays recieved seem to be under contract for several years for a relatively modest amount. I wonder if that was the primary motivation. It will all depend on how well Horowitz develops. When AA was in charge a lot of the "prospects" he traded away didn't amount to much with their new teams.
Why Cleveland let him go:
From wikipedia:
'On March 30, 2023, Giménez signed a seven-year extension with the Guardians worth $106.5 million.
In 2023 he batted .251/.314/.399, had the lowest average exit velocity of all AL batters (84.8 mph), and led the AL in percentage of balls that were softly hit (21.7%).'
His 2022 offensive numbers, while being paid at or near the Major League minimum salary, had been excellent for a player in his first full season in the Majors.
If the Jays trade Giménez at any time before the 2026 trade deadline, this was probably a good deal. If they don't, they'll essentially be paying $23.5 Million per year, (about 9% of their budget), for three subsequent years of a Leo Jimenez clone. In the short term, this deal will probably help the Jays to contend with the Rays for 4th place in the AL East.
If they add a few more Hispanic players, other teams might start calling them the Blue Hays again.
Good information.
I'm more old school so exit velocity doesn't mean much to mean(I'm not saying it's not important).
In a few years $23.5 million for a decent second baseman might not be as bad sounding as now. Also, it might be less than 9% of the payroll.
You're forgetting the most important factor for the Jays these days...DEFENCE!!!!!
More hispanic players might help keep Vladdy.
I think the Jays view someone like Will Wagner as similar to Spencer Horowitz. Both have had similar pedigree … neither were considered great prospects, drafted very late, and had to hit, hit, hit to establish themselves as later age prospects. They are both weak defenders at positions beside first. And they have hit at AAA and MLB when given the chance.
Both were quite poor defensively at second base, we know the Jays value defence, and I think the Jays have decided to move on from the Vlad idea at 3rd. So 1st is not really an option for either. So there was no clear spot for both on the roster. Wagner can also play 3rd which is something Horowitz does not
Now you get the starter at 2nd for 10m (in 2025) and relief depth which is desperately needed, and you hope to get Horowitz type production from Wagner … although less pop if we believe Horwitz surge in power in 2024 is going to continue.
I am OK with the deal. Not saying it’s great, but it’s not certainly not bad when looking at the 2025 window.
Both were quite poor defensively at second base, we know the Jays value defence, and I think the Jays have decided to move on from the Vlad idea at 3rd. So 1st is not really an option for either. So there was no clear spot for both on the roster. Wagner can also play 3rd which is something Horowitz does not
Now you get the starter at 2nd for 10m (in 2025) and relief depth which is desperately needed, and you hope to get Horowitz type production from Wagner … although less pop if we believe Horwitz surge in power in 2024 is going to continue.
I am OK with the deal. Not saying it’s great, but it’s not certainly not bad when looking at the 2025 window.
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Other than Leo Jimenez and Ernie Clement none of our second base or SS options even reach the low threshold of being a bit below average defensively (Bo, Wagner, Horwitz, Martinez)Poor Spencer being used while everyone gets what they want. And brilliant Ross acquires our 40th second base on the roster with no power. Great thinking Ross…
Philip
Gimene. is elite defensively and that matters up the middle. So at least in that regard he is not replicating others. That being said like most of the Jays he hit better in 2022 vs 2024. He needs to step up his obp.
As I said before I think the Jays see Will Wagner as the 2025 version of Horwitz. It’s certainly a risk and I wouldn’t count on it. Alternatively why not have and keep both is still a valid and fair question. But the Jays value D — sometimes to a fault. We will find out which.
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This guy is just a horrible GM. I cannot believe he still has a job.Poor Spencer being used while everyone gets what they want. And brilliant Ross acquires our 40th second base on the roster with no power. Great thinking Ross…
Philip
Yes he has back to back GG and he can run. But he barely gets on base at a .300 clip. And that's a problem especially if we want to use him near the top of the order.
He was also 6th in the MVP race in 2022 with an OBP of .371 (and WAR of 7.3) - obviously reaching those same levels again seem unrealistic but there is huge room for some improvement between 2024 and 2002.
It ultimately comes down to whether you think a 26 year old, who was 6th in the MVP race as a 23 year old, has bottomed out and will never recover in any meaningful way.
The Jays are obviously taking a gamble that he can return partway (or at least halfway) to his 2022 OBP level of ,371. Coming off years of ,298 and .314, If he could cut the gap from 2022 in half it would be pretty good (.335-.340). We are also banking on our hitting coaches, whomever they are, can make an adjustment -- I don't have much faith in that part though.
I think its a fair gamble. The Jays need to hit some "home runs" this offseason since they decided to re-tool with at best a modest team, and there is more upside in peak Gimenez than Horwitz. If it doesn't pay off though the cost is high in 2026 and beyond in terms of $ -- of course at that point we could be rebuilding anyway.
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I don't like Shatkins, and I think post 2021 they have done extremely poorly. They have put the team in a rotten position.
But I also don't think it makes any sense to blanket auto-shit on any move they make. There are certain risks they are taking here, but also upside opportunities.
Also with having somewhere between 60-80% more payroll than the Indians there are certain risks they can take that the Indians can't. Of course they are forced to take these risks because of the shitty job they have done the last 3 years.
But I also don't think it makes any sense to blanket auto-shit on any move they make. There are certain risks they are taking here, but also upside opportunities.
Also with having somewhere between 60-80% more payroll than the Indians there are certain risks they can take that the Indians can't. Of course they are forced to take these risks because of the shitty job they have done the last 3 years.
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- Jun 15, 2004
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- 1,622
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