Israel boards activist flotilla, shots fired, reports of dead and wounded

[danmand]

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/05/31/turkey-future-gaza-aid-ships-will-have-military-escorts/

If Turkey gives the next aid convoy protection from a naval escort, it would give the US a real conundrum: Israel or Nato??

Turkey: Future Gaza Aid Ships Will Have Military Escorts
Massacre Further Harms Israel-Turkey Ties
by Jason Ditz, May 31, 2010
Once Israel’s closest ally in the region, the Turkish government has reacted with fury at last night’s Gaza aid ship massacre, condemning it as ‘inhuman state terror.’

Turkey's Navy will reportedly protect future aid shipsThe attacked ship was Turkish in origin and at least two of the slain aid workers were Turkish citizens. Turkey says future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks.

Turko-Israeli relations have been on the decline in recent months, including a staged photo-op by the Israeli Foreign Ministry designed to shame Turkey’s ambassador. Israel also reportedly arrested a Turkish citizen weeks ago for being a member of a humanitarian group involved with the aid ship.

Israeli officials have defended the killings as “self defense,” claiming the aid workers were secretly in league with al-Qaeda. A top Israeli investment house has also called for a divestment from Turkey to protest Turkey’s criticism of the massacre.

 

[K Douglas]

Have you considered the option, that the EU has been calling for, namely to lift this blakade of Gaza?

Why? So Gaza militants can resume rocket attacks on Israeli civilian neighbourhoods. The EU is only pandering to its Islamic populations by calling for this. They could give two shits about Israeli security.

 

[fuji]

Whatever the rhetoric, Turkey is not going to attempt to run an Israeli blockade and deploy its military into the territorial waters of Israel or Gaza. If they do you can fully expect that Israel will sink their ships, and sink them in waters that are clearly under Israel's control.

The AK is looking for publicity and a boost in the polls, not a lose-lose war with Israel.

Sneaking hardened terrorists into an aid ship and provoking international outrage against Israel is good for them politically. Getting into an actual military conflict--not so much.

 

[danmand]

Why? So Gaza militants can resume rocket attacks on Israeli civilian neighbourhoods. The EU is only pandering to its Islamic populations by calling for this. They could give two shits about Israeli security.

I think you are mistaken. Europeans care much about the security of Israel, but they ALSO care about the suffering of the palestinians in Gaza. As you know, collective punishment is not allowed under the UN charter.

 

[K Douglas]

If Turkey gives the next aid convoy protection from a naval escort, it would give the US a real conundrum: Israel or Nato??

Turkey: Future Gaza Aid Ships Will Have Military Escorts
Massacre Further Harms Israel-Turkey Ties
by Jason Ditz, May 31, 2010
Once Israel’s closest ally in the region, the Turkish government has reacted with fury at last night’s Gaza aid ship massacre, condemning it as ‘inhuman state terror.’

Turkey's Navy will reportedly protect future aid shipsThe attacked ship was Turkish in origin and at least two of the slain aid workers were Turkish citizens. Turkey says future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks.

Turko-Israeli relations have been on the decline in recent months, including a staged photo-op by the Israeli Foreign Ministry designed to shame Turkey’s ambassador. Israel also reportedly arrested a Turkish citizen weeks ago for being a member of a humanitarian group involved with the aid ship.

Israeli officials have defended the killings as “self defense,” claiming the aid workers were secretly in league with al-Qaeda. A top Israeli investment house has also called for a divestment from Turkey to protest Turkey’s criticism of the massacre.

Turkey would be foolish to do this. This is a clear provocation to Israel. What happens when the ships enter Israeli waters?

 

[danmand]

Whatever the rhetoric, Turkey is not going to attempt to run an Israeli blockade and deploy its military into the territorial waters of Israel or Gaza. If they do you can fully expect that Israel will sink their ships, and sink them in waters that are clearly under Israel's control.

The AK is looking for publicity and a boost in the polls, not a lose-lose war with Israel.

Sneaking hardened terrorists into an aid ship and provoking international outrage against Israel is good for them politically. Getting into an actual military conflict--not so much.

Turkey would be foolish to do this. This is a clear provocation to Israel. What happens when the ships enter Israeli waters?

Maybe this will be the beginning to the end of NATO.

 

[fuji]

Maybe this will be the beginning to the end of NATO.

NATO is a defensive alliance. I don't think NATO is bound to do *anything* if Turkey initiates a conflict by running a lawful blockade.

For NATO to get involved first the UN SC would have to rule the blockade illegal, and then Israel would have to continue enforcing it despite a binding UN SC resolution, and then Turkey would have to risk war with Israel by running it. Otherwise Turkey is the instigator and the defensive pact is not obliged to come to its aid.

All of that is unlikely.

 

[danmand]

NATO is a defensive alliance. I don't think NATO is bound to do *anything* if Turkey initiates a conflict by running a lawful blockade.

For NATO to get involved first the UN SC would have to rule the blockade illegal, otherwise Turkey is the instigator.

It will force the US to choose between Israel and Nato. I suspect it will choose Israel.

However, someday sooner and later the US empire will no longer be able to afford its support for Israel. Then what?

 

[K Douglas]

I think you are mistaken. Europeans care much about the security of Israel, but they ALSO care about the suffering of the palestinians in Gaza. As you know, collective punishment is not allowed under the UN charter.

No I'm not mistaken. Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe. Many European universities have boycotted Israeli academics. Many European based companies have boycotted Israeli produced goods. The EU have not proposed a solution to the blockade, they just call for a unilateral ending on Israel's behalf with no consideration as to why the blockade was enacted in the first place. That shows how much they care about Israeli security.

 

[fuji]

It will force the US to choose between Israel and Nato. I suspect it will choose Israel.

No, because NATO would not require the US to do anything--it's a defensive alliance, and does not oblige the US to do anything when a NATO member instigates a conflict.

It might force the US to choose between Israel and Turkey. Most likely the US would sit on the sidelines and play both sides.

 

[flubadub]

Fuji, why won't you answer the question?

You support Israel's blockade of Gaza?
So do you support the mass starvation of children?

 

[alexmst]

Simple solution: Israel ends the Gaza blockade right now on the condition that Hamas does not fire any rockets at Israel. As soon as they fire say, more than 5 rockets on three seperate occassions (to prevent one crazy guy from wrecking the cease fire) , the blockade goes into force again and stays there.

 

[fuji]

So do you support the mass starvation of children?

I answered you before: No.

Israel lets through a large amount of humanitarian aid. In fact Israel stood ready to let through all the aid on these boats, provided they allowed Israeli inspections, and control of restricted stuff like cement.

The boats were not interested in delivering the aid, only in fighting.

 

[CapitalGuy]

Fuji, why won't you answer the question?

You support Israel's blockade of Gaza?
So do you support the mass starvation of children?

flubadub, do YOU support the annihilation of the Israeli people and the murder of innocent Israeli civilians?

 

[clubber]

Perhaps the US should escort the aid into Gaza. Perhaps Israel should follow international law if it wishes others to do so. Do on to others... This type of stuff is leading many people against Israel.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Neocons running Israel don't give a rats ass what people of the world think.
They are blinded to their agenda. It's their way or the highway.

 

[fuji]

Perhaps the US should escort the aid into Gaza. Perhaps Israel should follow international law if it wishes others to do so. Do on to others... This type of stuff is leading many people against Israel.

Israel has followed the law. It's a lawful blockade, which, note, are normally carried out in international waters.

 

[flubadub]

flubadub, do YOU support the annihilation of the Israeli people and the murder of innocent Israeli civilians?

Of course not, capital strawman.
I support peace for all.
I support the mandate of the UN.


But do you support the mass starvation of children?
I've posted links to studies by the WHO, UNICEF and articles by BBC and Haaretz.

And the only answers I've heard back are 'I don't believe it'.
Ridiculous.

 

[flubadub]

From Juancole.com:

Contrary to the assertions of far-right Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman, the Palestinians of Gaza, stripped of any citizenship and lacking any basic human rights, face continual shortages of medicine, medical equipment, electricity and even of food. They face crushing poverty and unemployment, along with inadequate hospitals. Many are still homeless after the Israelis destroyed their homes in the Gaza War, and they are being denied cement for rebuilding. They are not allowed to have a harbor or an airport. They are cut off from the market for their goods in Egypt, Jordan and the rest of the Arab world. As Uri Avnery points out, Israeli pledged in the Oslo accords 18 years ago to allow a deep water port for Gaza on the Mediterranean. Instead, it is assaulting even small aid vessels attempting to land at the pitiful excuse for a port.

The blockade is shameful. It is a gross violation of the international law governing the treatment of Occupied populations. And now the Security Council has roundly condemned it and insisted that it be lifted.

 

[flubadub]

Perhaps the Israeli partner in the blockade - EGYPT - should rein in the Palestinians.
The flotilla could have gone through Egypt but no.
A political statement is actually much more important then actually "helping the poor starving masses"

Sure, blame the neighbours. Its all their fault.