They were not prepared to be savagely attacked upon boarding. You are right. A gross miscalculation on the part of IDF, believing that professed non-violent protesters would act in a non-violent manner.
Israel boards activist flotilla, shots fired, reports of dead and wounded
- Thread starter fuji
- Start date
It is as much Egypt's "fault" as it is Israel's: Egypt maintains the same border restrictions on Gaza as Israel does ,over the part of the border under Egyptian control. Only food and medicine get through. No cement, etc.Sure, blame the neighbours. Its all their fault.
Why?
Because the reality is that all of this is the fault of Hamas, and Egypt recognizes that.
Have you considered that Hamas is regarded as a terrorist organization by most of the western world and is committed to the destruction of Israel and is constantly trying to arm and stockpile rockets and other weapons. Who do you propose is going to prevent this or interdict the arms. The UN was supposed to disarm Hezbollah and has done nothing, nor has any other country other than Israel to interdict arms. What is is that you propose or should Israel simply ignore Hamas.Have you considered the option, that the EU has been calling for, namely to lift this blakade of Gaza?
If that were true then they would have encouraged the organizers to ship the aid through Ashdod as Israel offered. This was about PR not aid.I think you are mistaken. Europeans care much about the security of Israel, but they ALSO care about the suffering of the palestinians in Gaza. As you know, collective punishment is not allowed under the UN charter.
Do you support hamas stockpiling rockets which are ultimately intended for Israeli population centers? If not how do you propose to keep them out? In the same way they have been kept out of southern Lebanon?Of course not, capital strawman.
I support peace for all.
I support the mandate of the UN.
But do you support the mass starvation of children?
I've posted links to studies by the WHO, UNICEF and articles by BBC and Haaretz.
And the only answers I've heard back are 'I don't believe it'.
Ridiculous.
They could have gone through Egypt but that would have had no PR impact which was the real point of this exercise.Perhaps the Israeli partner in the blockade - EGYPT - should rein in the Palestinians.
The flotilla could have gone through Egypt but no.
A political statement is actually much more important then actually "helping the poor starving masses"
Maybe its time for the UN to move and run the whole damn thing.Do you support hamas stockpiling rockets which are ultimately intended for Israeli population centers? If not how do you propose to keep them out? In the same way they have been kept out of southern Lebanon?
Well you can see how successful they have been in southern Lebanon. Not.Maybe its time for the UN to move and run the whole damn thing.
And we can see how successful Israel has been as well.Well you can see how successful they have been in southern Lebanon. Not.
Isreal is trying and succeeding or failing depending on your point of view. The UN doesn't even go through the pretense of trying notwithstanding that they were mandated to do so. Is simply shows that Israel cannot rely on anyone else for its survival.And we can see how successful Israel has been as well.
Are you aware of the history of UN peacekeeping in this regard? In the past the Arab nations have used UN forces as a shield behind which to mass an invasion force, and then kicked the UN out in advance of all out war against Israel. The UN peacekeepers did absolutely nothing to stop the buildup of arms and invasion force on the Israeli border. As toguy pointed out they've also been completely ineffective in Lebanon as well.Maybe its time for the UN to move and run the whole damn thing.
In the case of Palestinian agencies it is not a stretch to say that the UN agencies are closely linked with the Arab League, Hamas an the P.A., with many UN agencies, like UNRWA, UNHCR, etc., staffed by people selected by Israel's enemies and who are entirely hostile to Israel.
The UN has been spectacularly ineffective in providing security guarantees for Israel, and in fact has sometimes been complicit in undermining Israeli security.
The reality is this: Until Israel's neighbours acknowledge its right to exist and start brokering honest peace deals the problem cannot be solved in any other way than through such things as air strikes, armed raids, and blockades, and in that process people are going to die.
I don't see why they didn't disable the ships and tow them into port. They knew the EU had already searched the ships for weapons so why all the commando bullshit? If they'd towed them into port they would have had complete control of the situation. The whole world would have been watching while the activists were removed with minimum force and promptly deported. Then Israel could have delivered the cargo to Gaza and avoided all that bad publiciity.Israel is in a no win. If they sank the ships, the Palestinians get a PR victory (evil Israelis). If they attempt to peacefully intervene and fail, the Palestinians get a PR victory (weak Israelis). Attempting a peaceful intervention that turns violent, the Palestinians get a PR victory (evil Israelis). If they let them through, the Palestinians get a PR victory (weak Israelis). If they stop blockading Gaza with violent Hamas still in control, the Palestinians get a PR victory (weak Israelis). If they continue the blockade, the Palestinians get a PR victory (evil Israelis).
Since the Palestinians don't seem to be subjected to or care about negative press, the best Israel can accomplish is not getting screwed to bad.
Still blaming the neighbours?The reality is this: Until Israel's neighbours acknowledge its right to exist and start brokering honest peace deals the problem cannot be solved in any other way than through such things as air strikes, armed raids, and blockades, and in that process people are going to die.
If Israel treated all of the people within its borders fairly, I don't think there would be any complaining from its neighbours.
Have you read the Hamas charter?Still blaming the neighbours?
If Israel treated all of the people within its borders fairly, I don't think there would be any complaining from its neighbours.
That's a little naive.Still blaming the neighbours?
If Israel treated all of the people within its borders fairly, I don't think there would be any complaining from its neighbours.
Which border are you talking about? The ones that Hamas prefers which are none at all?Still blaming the neighbours?
If Israel treated all of the people within its borders fairly, I don't think there would be any complaining from its neighbours.
Egypt applies the same border restrictions on Gaza as Israel as requested by Israel.It is as much Egypt's "fault" as it is Israel's: Egypt maintains the same border restrictions on Gaza as Israel does ,over the part of the border under Egyptian control. Only food and medicine get through. No cement, etc.
Why?
Because the reality is that all of this is the fault of Hamas, and Egypt recognizes that.
Blaming Egypt while it carries out Israel's wishes is a most hypocritical argument.
But not anymore, after this incident the borders are free for now.
My point exactly...but NO, they must be invaded and killed. And there must be a publication ban by a DEMOCRATIC country (or shall i say occupying force)I don't see why they didn't disable the ships and tow them into port. They knew the EU had already searched the ships for weapons so why all the commando bullshit? If they'd towed them into port they would have had complete control of the situation. The whole world would have been watching while the activists were removed with minimum force and promptly deported. Then Israel could have delivered the cargo to Gaza and avoided all that bad publiciity.
What publication ban. have you not seen a newspaper or TV in the last few days, including Israeli newspapers and television? Where exactly is Israel occupying?My point exactly...but NO, they must be invaded and killed. And there must be a publication ban by a DEMOCRATIC country (or shall i say occupying force)
Here is some alternative information about the legality etc.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...as-seizing-the-flotilla-legal/article1587638/
Was seizing the flotilla legal?
And what were the goals and supporters of the humanitarian mission?
Patrick Martin
Globe and Mail Update
Published on Tuesday, Jun. 01, 2010 7:49AM EDT
Last updated on Tuesday, Jun. 01, 2010 8:20AM EDT
.1. Did Israel violate international law in boarding the ships?
Yes, it probably did.
Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.
However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said.
“To say that this blockade would be jeopardized by the flotilla and that sometime down the road weapons might come into Gaza as a result, and thereby pose a threat to Israel, is to stretch the definition of self defence way further than anyone ever countenanced.”
The fact that commandoes may have encountered violent behaviour when they boarded the ships still is not justification for their use of deadly force, he added. “The issue isn’t whether the passengers were violent, but whether Israel should have boarded the ships in this way at all.”
2. Who was behind the flotilla?
The Freedom Flotilla Coalition, as the organizers call themselves, is composed of a number of peace activist groups and human rights organizations. The two most prominent members are the American Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Insani Yardim Vakfi (or IHH).
Free Gaza’s leadership stems largely from the International Solidarity Movement, a group that dispatches observers in areas of conflict in an attempt to protect the rights of victims. They have long been involved in showing support for Palestinians under Israeli occupation – one of the flotilla’s ships was named for Rachel Corrie, an ISM member killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from leveling a Palestinian home.
IHH is an Islamic charity that first was established to help Muslim victims from the war in Bosnia. It has strong connections to Islamic movements around the world, including the Muslim Brotherhood (forerunner to Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank). The group was declared illegal by Israel for apparently funding Hamas charities that provided money to families of people who carried out suicide attacks. The group remains legal elsewhere and is an official observer at the United Nations Economic and Social Council.
3. Was it a humanitarian mission?
Yes, but it was definitely more than that. Organizers said they were transporting some 10,000 tons of relief supplies (cement, prefab homes, medical and school supplies), which constitutes a humanitarian effort to relieve disadvantaged people in Gaza.
At the same time, however, the flotilla’s leadership also made it clear they wanted to “break the siege” Israel has maintained on Gaza since June, 2007, when Hamas came to complete control of the strip. This was something the Hamas leadership openly welcomed.
It was as much a political mission as it was humanitarian.
4. Are conditions in Gaza as bad as these groups say?
Conditions in Gaza are terrible in some ways – the whole population is under lock and key, forbidden to leave or to receive visitors. (The only people who can enter Gaza these days are diplomats, members of certain well-established NGOs, and accredited journalists.) As well, the economy is in bad shape with no opportunities for people to work in Israel or in industrial zones that once existed on the frontier.
But no one in Gaza is starving. Farming still is carried out and fresh fruit and vegetables abound at different times. Humanitarian supplies are reaching the people, mostly through United Nations agencies, facilitated by the Israelis (though they can stop the facilitation if and when they wish.) Fuel oil is permitted into the strip, in sufficient quantity to generate about 12 hours of electrical power each day, and the famous tunnels at the south end of the territory bring in an astonishingly large variety of food and consumer products.
Life is remarkably normal, a testament to Gazans’ resilience. But the place could be described as a well-supplied prison.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...as-seizing-the-flotilla-legal/article1587638/
Was seizing the flotilla legal?
And what were the goals and supporters of the humanitarian mission?
Patrick Martin
Globe and Mail Update
Published on Tuesday, Jun. 01, 2010 7:49AM EDT
Last updated on Tuesday, Jun. 01, 2010 8:20AM EDT
.1. Did Israel violate international law in boarding the ships?
Yes, it probably did.
Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.
However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said.
“To say that this blockade would be jeopardized by the flotilla and that sometime down the road weapons might come into Gaza as a result, and thereby pose a threat to Israel, is to stretch the definition of self defence way further than anyone ever countenanced.”
The fact that commandoes may have encountered violent behaviour when they boarded the ships still is not justification for their use of deadly force, he added. “The issue isn’t whether the passengers were violent, but whether Israel should have boarded the ships in this way at all.”
2. Who was behind the flotilla?
The Freedom Flotilla Coalition, as the organizers call themselves, is composed of a number of peace activist groups and human rights organizations. The two most prominent members are the American Free Gaza Movement and the Turkish Insani Yardim Vakfi (or IHH).
Free Gaza’s leadership stems largely from the International Solidarity Movement, a group that dispatches observers in areas of conflict in an attempt to protect the rights of victims. They have long been involved in showing support for Palestinians under Israeli occupation – one of the flotilla’s ships was named for Rachel Corrie, an ISM member killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from leveling a Palestinian home.
IHH is an Islamic charity that first was established to help Muslim victims from the war in Bosnia. It has strong connections to Islamic movements around the world, including the Muslim Brotherhood (forerunner to Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank). The group was declared illegal by Israel for apparently funding Hamas charities that provided money to families of people who carried out suicide attacks. The group remains legal elsewhere and is an official observer at the United Nations Economic and Social Council.
3. Was it a humanitarian mission?
Yes, but it was definitely more than that. Organizers said they were transporting some 10,000 tons of relief supplies (cement, prefab homes, medical and school supplies), which constitutes a humanitarian effort to relieve disadvantaged people in Gaza.
At the same time, however, the flotilla’s leadership also made it clear they wanted to “break the siege” Israel has maintained on Gaza since June, 2007, when Hamas came to complete control of the strip. This was something the Hamas leadership openly welcomed.
It was as much a political mission as it was humanitarian.
4. Are conditions in Gaza as bad as these groups say?
Conditions in Gaza are terrible in some ways – the whole population is under lock and key, forbidden to leave or to receive visitors. (The only people who can enter Gaza these days are diplomats, members of certain well-established NGOs, and accredited journalists.) As well, the economy is in bad shape with no opportunities for people to work in Israel or in industrial zones that once existed on the frontier.
But no one in Gaza is starving. Farming still is carried out and fresh fruit and vegetables abound at different times. Humanitarian supplies are reaching the people, mostly through United Nations agencies, facilitated by the Israelis (though they can stop the facilitation if and when they wish.) Fuel oil is permitted into the strip, in sufficient quantity to generate about 12 hours of electrical power each day, and the famous tunnels at the south end of the territory bring in an astonishingly large variety of food and consumer products.
Life is remarkably normal, a testament to Gazans’ resilience. But the place could be described as a well-supplied prison.
