Discreet Dolls

Israel at war

niniveh

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PATTERN OF LIES AND DECEIT
But you can bet they will jump up and applaud him in Congress even as he shafts Biden

JUNE 21, 2024Biden Team Ignores Israel’s History of Deceit and Deception
BY MELVIN GOODMAN
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Photograph Source: The White House – Public Domain
Question: How do you know when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is lying?
Answer: He moves his lips.
Israel’s history over the past 76 years is replete with examples of deceit. This was true from the start, when the Israelis denied their role in expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes during Israel’s War of Independence. The Arab world refers to the expulsion as the “nakba” (the catastrophe), which is largely denied in Israel. The Israeli legacy of denying the “nakba” is no different from those who deny the Holocaust.
The mainstream media bends over backwards to defend Israel’s case, and over the years it has said very little about the history of Israel’s deceit and deception. As recently as last week, for example, the Washington Post carried a bizarre headline that read “Israel is on its honor to comply with U.S. intelligence limits.” The accompanying story was a significant one, detailing the importance of the U.S. intelligence provided to Israel to conduct the rescue of four Israeli hostages, an operation that took the lives of nearly three hundred Palestinians, mostly women and children. By any definition of the requirement for proportionality in wartime, this was indeed a war crime.
The Post article went on to cite National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, an apologist for Israel since the start of the war on October 7th, who explained that the United States has “provided an intense range of assets and capabilities and expertise to Israel,” and that the provision of intelligence is “not tied or conditioned on anything else. It is not limited. We are not holding anything back. We are providing every asset, every tool, every capability.” These remarks are dispositive of our complicity in Israel’s brutal and unconscionable assault against Palestinian civilians.
At the same time, U.S. officials disingenuously claim that Israeli is prohibited from using U.S. intelligence for targeting in Gaza in any military operations, including airstrikes.” They argue that there are “long-standing formal arrangements that are scrutinized by lawyers in the U.S. intelligence community, as well as directives from the White House following the October 7th attacks.” This is particularly disingenuous because of the long record of deceit and deception from both the U.S. intelligence community regarding U.S. wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and the Israeli lies over the years regarding their wars in 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982. I’ve written extensively about U.S. and Israeli lies in my articles for CounterPunch and my various books and articles. And I will return to this deceit in future articles.
The idea that Israel is “on its honor” not to use U.S. intelligence for proscribed purposes, which is described by current U.S. intelligence officers, is laughable. The Israelis have regularly broken agreements with the United States regarding the use of certain weaponry as well as the supply of U.S. weapons technology to third countries. There is legislation on the books that requires the Director of National Intelligence to notify Congress if U.S. intelligence to any third country leads to civilian casualties, but this law is observed only in the breach. U.S. oversight regarding Israel is virtually nonexistent.
The Israeli pattern of deceit is particularly important because Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is currently engaged in a new round of false accusations in order to embarrass the Biden administration and divide the American public on the Gaza war as well as the U.S. election. At least, the Biden administration has responded to Netanyahu’s outrageous charge by canceling an important meeting of the U.S.-Israeli Strategic Consultative Group regarding policy toward Iran in return for Netanyahu’s “stunt.”
Nevertheless, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan did not cancel or postpone his meeting with his Israeli counterpart, Tzachi Hanegbi, and the U.S. Ambassador to Israel, Jack Lew, went overboard in stressing to Netanyahu there there haven’t been any delays in providing weaponry. Also, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who arrived in Israel early in the war and announced that “I’m come before you not only as the U.S. secretary of state, but as a Jew,” assured Netanyahu that U.S. weapons were “moving as it normally would move.” The only exception has been the hold on 2,000-pound bombs, which have killed thousands of women and children and should never have been provided to Israel in the first place.
These mixed signals over Netanyahu’s remarks were reminiscent of the so-called “red line” that Biden proclaimed to lighten an Israeli assault in Rafah, where more than a million refugees were threatened. Israeli Defense Forces stormed Rafah on May 6, and Biden threatened to withhold weapons on May 8. But there was no interruption of U.S. weapons deliveries, and the consequences in Rafah over the past six weeks have been devastating. The assault is still ongoing, but national security adviser Sullivan announced that the “red line” had not been broken.
The fact that the U.S. Congress is rolling out the red carpet for Netanyahu in July is particularly ludicrous in view of his history of manipulating American public and congressional opinion. Have we forgotten his address to the Congress in 2015, designed to embarrass the Obama administration and stop the completion of the Iran nuclear accord? On this occasion, the congressional invitation is shameful because Netanyahu is a war criminal whose policies are killing and starving innocent civilians.
Netanyahu has spoken privately about his ability to manipulate Democratic administrations because he has the power of the Jewish lobby behind him, and Democratic presidents are fearful of antagonizing the Jewish vote and Jewish fund raising on behalf of Democrats. He has insulted American presidents, vice presidents, and secretaries of state over the years, and has never missed an opportunity to demonstrate that he has the upper hand in negotiations with the United States. Netanyahu has always played hard ball with the United States. Now, it’s time for the United States to do the same.
Melvin A. Goodman is a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy and a professor of government at Johns Hopkins University. A former CIA analyst, Goodman is the author of Failure of Intelligence: The Decline and Fall of the CIA and National Insecurity: The Cost of American Militarism. and A Whistleblower at the CIA. His most recent books are “American Carnage: The Wars of Donald Trump” (Opus Publishing, 2019) and “Containing the National Security State” (Opus Publishing, 2021). Goodman is the national security columnist for counterpunch.org.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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Sometimes a no win happens. That's what this is. As an example look at the Dearborn area Muslims. They are going to either stay home, vote third party, or Vote Trump. All to stick it to Biden. Because he IS THE ONE, authorizing the bombs and simping to Israel.

It truly doesn't matter. When the two parties are the same, this is what happens.
That you can still say with a straight face "the two parties are the same" is kind of mind-boggling, even factoring in that is you.

A "no win" doesn't happen.
One of the people gets elected.
Staying home influences that - albeit indirectly - it increases the chances of the person you prefer not win winning.
(So does voting third party.)

Now, as you say, there are people who will go "look, I want to lie to myself about helping Trump win, but I want Biden to lose, so I will not vote or vote third party".
In the end, they are making a decision "It is more important that Biden lose/I don't mind Trump winning".

That is ABSOLUTELY THEIR RIGHT.

What I find interesting - and won't let them off the hook for - is how virulently they want to deny they are making the choice they are making.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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You really don't think its worth trying to change the system, do you?
I absolutely do.
Why do you think I'm so opposed to people doing silly things that won't accomplish that?
I want people to take effective action to change the system.
Not voting and voting third party are the opposite of that.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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This is your characterization of their choice, and not a reflection of how they actually feel. If you are Muslim and the Israel Palestine issue is number 1 for you, then you really have no choice in either Biden or Trump. Both are equally bad. So you vote third party or not vote at all. Minorities or even Pro-Palestinians dont automatically prefer Biden over Trump. On this issue, as Butler1000 said, both parties are essentially the same.
My characterization is accurate.
Even on this one issue, both parties aren't the same - obviously.
You may decide the difference isn't worth much, but they aren't the same.

And if you are a single issue voter - you are still saying " I don't mind Trump winning".
You are saying that none of those other issues matter - the parties are the same on this issue and so you don't care about any other consequences.

Again - the sheer effort people will go to trying to deny this very simple fact is astounding.

It is 100% within the rights of a voter to say "I DO NOT CARE about any other issue and therefore DO NOT CARE who wins because I see no difference between the parties on the issue I care about".
I think that's stupid and if someone truly does not care about any other issue at all, they are pretty broken when it comes to political understanding.
But they absolutely have the right to vote that way.

I just am not going to pretend that isn't what they are doing.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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My characterization is accurate.
Even on this one issue, both parties aren't the same - obviously.
You may decide the difference isn't worth much, but they aren't the same.

And if you are a single issue voter - you are still saying " I don't mind Trump winning".
You are saying that none of those other issues matter - the parties are the same on this issue and so you don't care about any other consequences.

Again - the sheer effort people will go to trying to deny this very simple fact is astounding.

It is 100% within the rights of a voter to say "I DO NOT CARE about any other issue and therefore DO NOT CARE who wins because I see no difference between the parties on the issue I care about".
I think that's stupid and if someone truly does not care about any other issue at all, they are pretty broken when it comes to political understanding.
But they absolutely have the right to vote that way.

I just am not going to pretend that isn't what they are doing.
Explain the difference in Israeli policy between the two parties.
 

Valcazar

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Explain the difference in Israeli policy between the two parties.
What exactly is the difference between the 2 parties as it regards Palestine? Military aid and political support for Israel is always going to continue. Politicians on both sides are bought and paid for by AIPAC.

So neither of you are paying attention?

No worries about Trump's call for Israel to "Finish the job"?
The calls from Israel about how much Biden is hampering the war effort?
Trump's advisors calling for Palestinian expulsion from Gaza and full annexation of the West bank?
Trump's support and encouragement of war crimes as the best way to win? (Especially war crimes against Muslims.)

Or we can review some of Trump’s policy toward the Palestinians when in office.
- His government declared that it no longer considered the settlements to be illegal.
- Senior Trump administration officials questioned Palestinians’ ability to govern themselves.
- The Trump “peace plan” was negotiating only with Israel — the Palestinians were not included.
- He ended U.S. aid to Palestinians for things like hospitals, infrastructure and schools.

So yeah, the parties aren't the same, even here.

This is almost as dumb as people saying "The Democrats didn't do universal health care - there is no difference between the parties!".

Again, someone who votes a third party, is voting against Trump as much as they are voting against Biden.
No they aren't.
Or rather, they have to not understand the system they are voting in to believe that.
(Which, to be fair, is a problem. Lots of people are badly confused about this.)

So yes, they might be doing that in terms of "that is what they feel".
It just isn't actually what they are doing in terms of consequence.

But even using your logic, it is still them saying that either they have no preference between Biden and Trump on any issue or in any way - since those are the only two possible winners and refusing to pick one means you are refusing to distinguish - or that while they DO have a preference for one or the other on policy, it is more important that the one they would normally support lose.

So if characterizing their choice as "I dont mind Trump winning" is true, then it is equally correct to characterize it as "I dont mind Biden winning".
You are operating under the assumption that in the absence of the Israel Palestine issue, their vote would have gone to Biden and I am telling you that this is your assumption, not reality.
Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.

Are there people who would prefer Trump in most ways, but because Trump is so pro-Israel they are not going to vote for him?
Maybe!

And they would also be acting stupidly from their point of view if they actually preferred Trump.

Remember, what is happening here is you are taking your vote away from the result you want.

So again, either you TRULY have no preference in any way between the two, or you do and are deluded about the effects of what you are doing with your vote.

Could there be a Trump supporter who is all in on Trump's policies but finds him too pro-Israel and so will vote third party?
Maybe!
But then they will also be doing exactly what I am saying, which is that they are ok contributing to Biden's victory. (Only more indirectly.)
 

Butler1000

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So neither of you are paying attention?

No worries about Trump's call for Israel to "Finish the job"?
The calls from Israel about how much Biden is hampering the war effort?
Trump's advisors calling for Palestinian expulsion from Gaza and full annexation of the West bank?
Trump's support and encouragement of war crimes as the best way to win? (Especially war crimes against Muslims.)

Or we can review some of Trump’s policy toward the Palestinians when in office.
- His government declared that it no longer considered the settlements to be illegal.
- Senior Trump administration officials questioned Palestinians’ ability to govern themselves.
- The Trump “peace plan” was negotiating only with Israel — the Palestinians were not included.
- He ended U.S. aid to Palestinians for things like hospitals, infrastructure and schools.

So yeah, the parties aren't the same, even here.

This is almost as dumb as people saying "The Democrats didn't do universal health care - there is no difference between the parties!".



No they aren't.
Or rather, they have to not understand the system they are voting in to believe that.
(Which, to be fair, is a problem. Lots of people are badly confused about this.)

So yes, they might be doing that in terms of "that is what they feel".
It just isn't actually what they are doing in terms of consequence.

But even using your logic, it is still them saying that either they have no preference between Biden and Trump on any issue or in any way - since those are the only two possible winners and refusing to pick one means you are refusing to distinguish - or that while they DO have a preference for one or the other on policy, it is more important that the one they would normally support lose.



Yes, I am, because that is the frame of the discussion.

Are there people who would prefer Trump in most ways, but because Trump is so pro-Israel they are not going to vote for him?
Maybe!

And they would also be acting stupidly from their point of view if they actually preferred Trump.

Remember, what is happening here is you are taking your vote away from the result you want.

So again, either you TRULY have no preference in any way between the two, or you do and are deluded about the effects of what you are doing with your vote.

Could there be a Trump supporter who is all in on Trump's policies but finds him too pro-Israel and so will vote third party?
Maybe!
But then they will also be doing exactly what I am saying, which is that they are ok contributing to Biden's victory. (Only more indirectly.)
So no difference. Because when you get past the lip service its the same. Israel will always get its military funding, no matter what.

Results matter. Stop gaslighting. The Democrats are lying.
 
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Butler1000

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Not to you, apparently.
Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.

Buden is old school full in Israel supporter. He will let them wipe out Gaza if they choose to. Just stop. This lying just kills your credibility.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
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So basically:

Trump: "Finish the job!!"
Biden: "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline"
Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.

While vetoing everything at the UN.
You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.

THAT is the difference you are referring to? As far as pro-Palestinians are concerned, it does not make a shred of difference whether a US president says "Finish the job" or "Israel has not crossed Biden's redline". The end result is the same where the US keeps providing military aid and political support to Israel.
So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?

Well, that explains a lot.

But your statement again hinges on the fundamentally erroneous assumption, that pro-Palestinians would vote for Biden if not for this issue.
No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.

I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.

People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.

The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.

The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.

All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".

If you argue that voting for a 3rd party is a vote against Biden, then it is similarly true that it is a vote against Trump. Your characterization that voting for a third party is solely a vote against Biden, is therefore incorrect.
No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.

The practical and very tangible effect of a person voting third party (for whatever reason) is that it takes a vote away from BOTH Trump and Biden.
This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.
 

Butler1000

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Which even rhetorically is not the same thing.
That's before you get into actual policy.



You think a Trump administration and a Biden administration are going to work the same at the UN?
Oh dear.



So, you don't follow Israel-Palestine politics at all?
Your understanding is entirely limited to military aid and "political support" which you can't define?

Well, that explains a lot.



No.
I am talking specifically about pro-Palestinians who would otherwise vote for Biden.
Obviously they wouldn't ALL vote for Biden otherwise.

I'm talking specifically about people who would prefer Biden's policies otherwise and will not vote for him because of this issue.

People who would never vote for either party because they have no policy issues they like or care about are already out of the equation.

The point I am making is that "voting third party" or "not voting" is ALWAYS indirectly a vote for one or another of the major parties if (and only if) you have any interest in any difference between the two parties.
If you truly and honestly see absolutely no difference in any issue between the parties, then it is a wash.

The moment you have a preference for ANYTHING between the two parties, then your vote for third party is a vote against the policies you claim you actually support.

All I have been trying to get people to admit, repeatedly, is that a vote for third party is an acknowledgement of that decision.
There are some very rare people who truly see no difference in any way between parties.
But lots of people just don't want to admit their revealed preferences and want to vote third party so that "their hands are clean".



No.
Voting third party when that party can't win isn't "a vote against both of the others" because it doesn't affect them. It's an entirely irrelevant vote in the actual structure of the election.
The only thing that matters is the vote differential between the two possible winners.
Who your vote would go to if you actually had to choose is the relevant issue.
If you had ANY preference, then choosing not to put that person is power is a choice to actually put the other person in power.



This is a complete misunderstanding of how a plurality system actually works.
Man, who lot of obfuscation to unpack there.....what a crock.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
37,050
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Dude. There is literally no difference. Just stop. It's why he has lost the Muslim vote. Why the Muslim Democrat mayors in Michigan refused to meet with any party officials for support for Biden.

Buden is old school full in Israel supporter. He will let them wipe out Gaza if they choose to. Just stop. This lying just kills your credibility.
I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)

It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.

That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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I didn't say he isn't an old school full-in Israel supporter.
His Israel policy is indefensible.
(Which is why - given your "Israel should commit war crimes" stance - I'm impressed by how deep your hatred for Democrats goes that you are taking the "It is bad that he is Genocide Joe" tactic here.)

It is quite possible for his policy to be indefensible and for Trump to be worse.

That you've always had trouble with anything more complicated than "People me like = Good! People me don't like = Bad!" doesn't change that.
Lol. Semantics. Its all about sending arms, giving UN cover, and looking the other way. Its just the GOP is honest. The Dems want the same result. But try to claim they don't.

Results matter.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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You are saying a lot of things without saying anything at all. What is the difference? a) Political support for Israel on the international stage. b) Support and protection for Israel at the UN. c) Military aid for Israel are the 3 primary points of contention.

What has Biden done that helps the Palestinian cause? Nothing. What will Trump do? Nothing. Looking past the rhetorical mumbo jumbo, they are 2 sides of the same coin.

Even if you were talking about pro-Palestinians who would have voted for Biden, but who have now decided to vote 3rd party because of dissatisfaction with Biden on his positions on Palestine, it is still not "support for Trump". Biden's position on Palestine has turned them anti-Biden. They are already anti-Trump. So the right conclusion will be to say that they are both anti-Biden and anti-Trump.

Their 3rd party vote is taking away a vote from BOTH Trump and Biden. That is what is actually and objectively happening. You'd be wrong in calling that pro-Trump, when it is objectively true that by voting 3rd party or by not voting at all, they just took away a vote FROM Trump as much as they did Biden!
His position is the Democrats are ENTITLED to their vote and DENYING them their rightful vote makes them traitors.
 
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