Israel at war

[mandrill]

So you say Israel should continue bombing everywhere for 10 more years?
Or will they have "defeated Hamas" before that?

They'll defeat Hamas in a couple of months.

So bomb them for 2 or 3 generations then?
Just continuous bombing?

See above.

So how does bombing solve this?

It wipes out Hamas which is what Israeli politics demands now.

It removes an Islamic terror organization and hierarchy which utterly controls every aspect of Gaza and mass mobilizes the population to hate Israel.

It allows Israel to attempt to substitute another administration in Gaza.

But only time and probably a new generation can produce a change of direction in Gaza and it is debatable whether any administration forced on Gaza by the Israelis will have traction. That's the issue. But complete destruction of the preceding hate-focussed regime and its forcible replacement by a friendly administration might bring change. Let's use this parallel.

Say in 1943, the USSR and the Allies negotiated a ceasefire with Nazi Germany which allowed Hitler and the Nazi party to remain in power. It is almost certain that Germany would have continued the policies and attitudes that it had before the ceasefire and Germany would likely have started up a new installment of the war in a few years. But Nazi Germany was utterly destroyed and occupied and Germany was forced to install an Allied-friendly government. And in a decade or so, Germany had been transformed into a responsible democratic partner and traces of the former regime and ideology driven underground, if not wiped out.

My guess is that this is what the Israelis are trying to accomplish.

Which you said would take two to three generations?

It took 15 years in Germany.

And presumably it is "everyone who has ever said Hamas has a point" who must be killed?
Or just anyone who said that Israel should maybe kill less people who must be killed?
Or is it just a current list of Hamas leadership?
Who decides who is on that list?

No. The Hamas leadership should be exterminated and all active Hamas armed militia should be killed or detained. Virtually the entire population cheerleads for Hamas, including the women and kids. Just like the entire population of Nazi Germany cheerleaded for Hitler and der Partei. Most people will re-align their ideas or simply stfu and then adjust to the new reality when Hamas is removed and the Israelis occupy Gaza.

 

[Leimonis]

So you say Israel should continue bombing everywhere for 10 more years?
Or will they have "defeated Hamas" before that?



So bomb them for 2 or 3 generations then?
Just continuous bombing?



So how does bombing solve this?



Which you said would take two to three generations?
And presumably it is "everyone who has ever said Hamas has a point" who must be killed?
Or just anyone who said that Israel should maybe kill less people who must be killed?
Or is it just a current list of Hamas leadership?
Who decides who is on that list?

It’s good that you are looking for permanent answers but note that team hamas here has not offered anything workable. Except “end of apartheid and occupation” also known as unleashing a million plus of radicalized gazans (plus maybe also West Bank ppl) into a society which would only lead to hamas growing in size and popularity which would lead to a permanent October 7. How the fuck are Israelis supposed to be okay with that?

 

[Valcazar]

They'll defeat Hamas in a couple of months.

See above.

Then why did you say it will take 10 years and then 2 to 3 generations?

It wipes out Hamas which is what Israeli politics demands now.

What does this mean though?
Every person who is listed on a "Hamas org chart" is dead or captured?
Every person who has expressed a pro-Hamas opinion?
Every person who has expressed an anti-Israeli opinion?

What does "It wipes out Hamas" mean?

It removes an Islamic terror organization and hierarchy which utterly controls every aspect of Gaza and mass mobilizes the population to hate Israel.

It allows Israel to attempt to substitute another administration in Gaza.

OK, that sounds like a slightly different goal than "wipes out Hamas".

Israel substitutes another administration in Gaza.

But only time and probably a new generation can produce a change of direction in Gaza and it is debatable whether any administration forced on Gaza by the Israelis will have traction. That's the issue.

Completely agreed.
So when Israel installs a puppet regime and it is rejected, what is the answer?
More bombing? Or is it that once the regime change has been effectuated, other methods are now considered reasonable?

But complete destruction of the preceding hate-focussed regime and its forcible replacement by a friendly administration might bring change. Let's use this parallel.

Say in 1943, the USSR and the Allies negotiated a ceasefire with Nazi Germany which allowed Hitler and the Nazi party to remain in power. It is almost certain that Germany would have continued the policies and attitudes that it had before the ceasefire and Germany would likely have started up a new installment of the war in a few years. But Nazi Germany was utterly destroyed and occupied and Germany was forced to install an Allied-friendly government. And in a decade or so, Germany had been transformed into a responsible democratic partner and traces of the former regime and ideology driven underground, if not wiped out.

My guess is that this is what the Israelis are trying to accomplish.


It took 15 years in Germany.

Good example.
You can use Japan as well, but let's stick to Germany.

So here's the question.
Did the US "wipe out" the Nazis?

Who did they actually kill, capture, and imprison?
How much of the leadership?
How much of the people who participated in any way in government?

How many ex-Nazis were part of the West German government over the next 20-30 years?
(Hint - a LOT).

In other words, the Nazi example is kind of at odds with the "Wipe out Hamas" example.

That's all I'm trying to point out here - there seems to be very little thought being given to what comes next here outside of vague and largely meaningless slogans such as "wipe out Hamas".

No. The Hamas leadership should be exterminated and all active Hamas armed militia should be killed or detained. Virtually the entire population cheerleads for Hamas, including the women and kids. Just like the entire population of Nazi Germany cheerleaded for Hitler and der Partei. Most people will re-align their ideas or simply stfu and then adjust to the new reality when Hamas is removed and the Israelis occupy Gaza.

You are advocating for a MORE intense "de-Hamasification" than happened in Nazi Germany then?
The murder of everyone considered "Hamas leadership" without trial and then anyone who ever took up a gun should be killed or arrested?
No amnesty, no sorting of people, and anyone who was a member of the previous government in any way killed or arrested?

 

[nottyboi]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-20...-from-gaza-but-says-fighting-likely-all-year/

Israel withdraws 5 brigades from Hamas, apparently they got a shit kicking

 

[Klatuu]

They'll defeat Hamas in a couple of months.



See above.



It wipes out Hamas which is what Israeli politics demands now.

It removes an Islamic terror organization and hierarchy which utterly controls every aspect of Gaza and mass mobilizes the population to hate Israel.

It allows Israel to attempt to substitute another administration in Gaza.

But only time and probably a new generation can produce a change of direction in Gaza and it is debatable whether any administration forced on Gaza by the Israelis will have traction. That's the issue. But complete destruction of the preceding hate-focussed regime and its forcible replacement by a friendly administration might bring change. Let's use this parallel.

Say in 1943, the USSR and the Allies negotiated a ceasefire with Nazi Germany which allowed Hitler and the Nazi party to remain in power. It is almost certain that Germany would have continued the policies and attitudes that it had before the ceasefire and Germany would likely have started up a new installment of the war in a few years. But Nazi Germany was utterly destroyed and occupied and Germany was forced to install an Allied-friendly government. And in a decade or so, Germany had been transformed into a responsible democratic partner and traces of the former regime and ideology driven underground, if not wiped out.

My guess is that this is what the Israelis are trying to accomplish.


It took 15 years in Germany.



No. The Hamas leadership should be exterminated and all active Hamas armed militia should be killed or detained. Virtually the entire population cheerleads for Hamas, including the women and kids. Just like the entire population of Nazi Germany cheerleaded for Hitler and der Partei. Most people will re-align their ideas or simply stfu and then adjust to the new reality when Hamas is removed and the Israelis occupy Gaza.

Delusional

 

[mandrill]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-20...-from-gaza-but-says-fighting-likely-all-year/

Israel withdraws 5 brigades from Hamas, apparently they got a shit kicking

No. They are withdrawn because they are not needed because Hamas is being beaten far more quickly than anyone predicted.

 

[Klatuu]

It’s good that you are looking for permanent answers but note that team hamas here has not offered anything workable. Except “end of apartheid and occupation” also known as unleashing a million plus of radicalized gazans (plus maybe also West Bank ppl) into a society which would only lead to hamas growing in size and popularity which would lead to a permanent October 7. How the fuck are Israelis supposed to be okay with that?

Brainwashed

 

[mandrill]

Delusional

The IDF controls most of Gaza City and Khan Yunis and is tightening the noose on Hamas block by block.

Then the IDF will move south to Rafa and do the same thing.

If Hamas was winning, Israel would be pushed back to the fence.

 

[Klatuu]

No. They are withdrawn because they are not needed because Hamas is being beaten far more quickly than anyone predicted.

Magical thinking

 

[Valcazar]

It’s good that you are looking for permanent answers but note that team hamas here has not offered anything workable.

Agreed.
Hamas in particular seems very uninterested in any kind of real political solution either.

Except “end of apartheid and occupation” also known as unleashing a million plus of radicalized gazans (plus maybe also West Bank ppl) into a society which would only lead to hamas growing in size and popularity which would lead to a permanent October 7. How the fuck are Israelis supposed to be okay with that?

That's a very limited view of what "end of apartheid and occupation" means and would lead to.
But yes, "end of apartheid and occupation" is a slogan - much like "wipe out Hamas" that tells people very little about what that would actually mean or look like.

This is my whole point - among the major figures on both sides right now I see very little serious discussion of what the future would look like and even LESS of what it would take to get there and the incredibly difficult path involved.

 

[Klatuu]

The IDF controls most of Gaza City and Khan Yunis and is tightening the noose on Hamas block by block.

Then the IDF will move south to Rafa and do the same thing.

If Hamas was winning, Israel would be pushed back to the fence.

The thinking of someone who doesn’t know the difference between tactical and strategic. You can’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

 

[mandrill]

Then why did you say it will take 10 years and then 2 to 3 generations?

Because I hadn't thought of my Germany example then and assumed it would be a multi generational task.

What does this mean though?
Every person who is listed on a "Hamas org chart" is dead or captured?
Every person who has expressed a pro-Hamas opinion?
Every person who has expressed an anti-Israeli opinion?

What does "It wipes out Hamas" mean?

The hierarchy annihilated and the armed faction neutralized.

OK, that sounds like a slightly different goal than "wipes out Hamas".

Israel substitutes another administration in Gaza.

Completely agreed.
So when Israel installs a puppet regime and it is rejected, what is the answer?
More bombing? Or is it that once the regime change has been effectuated, other methods are now considered reasonable?

Let's play it through. If Israel installs the "Completely reasonable and totally co existent Arab Gaza government" and an armed Islamic faction rises up and overthrows this administration, what does Israel do?..... Re enter Gaza to re impose their puppet administration?

Probably.

Good example.
You can use Japan as well, but let's stick to Germany.

So here's the question.
Did the US "wipe out" the Nazis?

Who did they actually kill, capture, and imprison?
How much of the leadership?
How much of the people who participated in any way in government?

How many ex-Nazis were part of the West German government over the next 20-30 years?
(Hint - a LOT).

In other words, the Nazi example is kind of at odds with the "Wipe out Hamas" example.

That's all I'm trying to point out here - there seems to be very little thought being given to what comes next here outside of vague and largely meaningless slogans such as "wipe out Hamas".

Okay. Good points.

The Allies killed or imprisoned the higher-ups and more notorious Nazis, but the entire administrative apparatus was composed of superficially pro Nazi individuals and the Allies simply retained these while keeping a large garrison. One must then assume that most of the Nazi lower-downs were either Nazis in name only or eager to trim their sails to accomodate the prevailing wind. Question of fact becomes how much of the Gaza adminstration is similar and how much is hard-core Islamic extremist.

No one knows if the Nazi Germany simile is actually workable. It's simply the best comparison I can think of.

You are advocating for a MORE intense "de-Hamasification" than happened in Nazi Germany then?
The murder of everyone considered "Hamas leadership" without trial and then anyone who ever took up a gun should be killed or arrested?
No amnesty, no sorting of people, and anyone who was a member of the previous government in any way killed or arrested?

See my concession above. I had in mind the idea of killing or detaining Yahya and his high echelon buddies. The local postmaster and schoolteacher are probably Hamas as well, but are you really going to detain them and put them on trial for war crimes?.... Probably you're just going to put the fear of God (or Yahweh) into them and tell them that the old ways are gone forever.

 

[mandrill]

The thinking of someone who doesn’t know the difference between tactical and strategic. You can’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

I admit there's going to be a helluva lot of clean-up and rebuild for the Gaza folk to do when the IDF gets through. But they'll get it done. Just like the Germans in 1945.

 

[Frankfooter]

Euro-Med Monitor strives to support these movements by planting the seeds for international mobilization and stimulating human rights organizations and decision-makers to focus on violation of the people’s right to expression and freedom.

I can see how angry it must be that they support human rights.
Runs counter to your belief that all Palestinians are vermin that need to be exterminated.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740144329354854469

 

[Frankfooter]

It said 30,034 dead.

So I only need another 469,966 dead Palestinians until I'm happy.

Fixed your post, as you call for more genocide and I call for a ceasefire.

Oh, we found out why you want a surrender and not a ceasefire.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1742642080613077343

 

[Valcazar]

Okay. Good points.

The Allies killed or imprisoned the higher-ups and more notorious Nazis, but the entire administrative apparatus was composed of superficially pro Nazi individuals and the Allies simply retained these while keeping a large garrison. One must then assume that most of the Nazi lower-downs were either Nazis in name only or eager to trim their sails to accomodate the prevailing wind. Question of fact becomes how much of the Gaza adminstration is similar and how much is hard-core Islamic extremist.

No one knows if the Nazi Germany simile is actually workable. It's simply the best comparison I can think of.

See my concession above. I had in mind the idea of killing or detaining Yahya and his high echelon buddies. The local postmaster and schoolteacher are probably Hamas as well, but are you really going to detain them and put them on trial for war crimes?.... Probably you're just going to put the fear of God (or Yahweh) into them and tell them that the old ways are gone forever.

Right, but "Wipe out Hamas" may or may not mean that to lots of people.
You have people in this very thread (let alone in Israel) saying you can't do what you are suggesting above - you have to kill the local postmaster and schoolteacher as well.
And, as you say, if Israel doesn't like what happens to the administration they install, they reserve the right to invade again.
Which mirrors the whole lead up to October 7.
Israel left, Hamas got elected.
Israel didn't like it, but didn't invade (there was hardly peace, though).
Oct 7 happens, and we have the shit show we are seeing now.

Remember that during the whole time Hamas existed, there were people in Israel saying that Hamas being elected was enough reason to invade again.
As far as they are concerned, Hamas proved them right on October 7, so next time Israel shouldn't wait until October 7 - if a group with any similarity to Hamas was elected, they should be overthrown immediately.
Or you can just not allow Palestinians to elect their own government.

None of this is easy, or simple, or obvious, and no matter how much some people want to argue that if you just kill enough people it will all work out, colour me unconvinced.

 

[Frankfooter]

Let's play it through. If Israel installs the "Completely reasonable and totally co existent Arab Gaza government" and an armed Islamic faction rises up and overthrows this administration, what does Israel do?..... Re enter Gaza to re impose their puppet administration?

Except this isn't Nazis vs the west.
This is a foreign colonial movement annihilating an indigenous population.

This is the US in Iraq, or Russia or the US in Afghanistan or Putin in Ukraine trying to wipe out Ukrainians in the Donbas.

You can't wipe out the entire indigenous population, nor can you wipe out an ideology of resistance to a foreign occupation.
You can't even ethnically cleanse them, much as you want it.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1742642080613077343

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1741538412161835152

 

[Frankfooter]

Right, but "Wipe out Hamas" may or may not mean that to lots of people.
You have people in this very thread (let alone in Israel) saying you can't do what you are suggesting above - you have to kill the local postmaster and schoolteacher as well.
And, as you say, if Israel doesn't like what happens to the administration they install, they reserve the right to invade again.
Which mirrors the whole lead up to October 7.
Israel left, Hamas got elected.
Israel didn't like it, but didn't invade (there was hardly peace, though).
Oct 7 happens, and we have the shit show we are seeing now.

Remember that during the whole time Hamas existed, there were people in Israel saying that Hamas being elected was enough reason to invade again.
As far as they are concerned, Hamas proved them right on October 7, so next time Israel shouldn't wait until October 7 - if a group with any similarity to Hamas was elected, they should be overthrown immediately.
Or you can just not allow Palestinians to elect their own government.

None of this is easy, or simple, or obvious, and no matter how much some people want to argue that if you just kill enough people it will all work out, colour me unconvinced.

Its also not that complicated.

First thing you do after a ceasefire and investigations on both sides is you give everyone living under Israeli control full human rights including the vote.
You end apartheid and turn it into a democracy.

The population is roughly equal between Jews and Palestinians.

 

[Frankfooter]

Do Asshole stuff. Expect to play by Asshole Rules.

So you expect Israel to have to suffer more attacks because they play by asshole rules?
Such a great strategy.

 

[Frankfooter]

frank wants 500,000 to die.

No, shack.
I want a ceasefire so that nobody dies.