Israel at war

[Butler1000]

We don't disagree that Hamas is a terrorist group. We don't disagree that Hamas has overall been negative for the Palestinians. We don't have to argue about that, since we agree.

But it is not just the Hamas that has resulted in the Palestinian's current condition. It is the actions of both Israel and Hamas, that has got the Palestinians to where they are. It takes 2 to tango.

You have to also acknowledge the following truths along with saying Hamas is a terrorist group that has fucked it up for the Palestinians:

- That Israel is a racist and apartheid state, that severely oppresses the Palestinian people, because their end goal is to take the land for themselves. It is in the psyche of the state, as well as the majority of the individuals in Israel. They consider the land to be theirs and the Palestinians to be 'occupiers'.

- Bibi's government is a malicious ultra-right wing psychopathic government, that enabled the Hamas, so that the Palestinian demand would lose credibility.

- Bibi, as well as Israelis, generally believe in collective punishment. So what they are doing in Gaza is a war crime. They are both ineffective and killing scores of people.

These cannot be denied because there is ample proof that I have provided in this very same thread.

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Its not an apartheid state because over 2 million arab Muslims live peaceably within the borders with the same rights as Jews. If it was an Apartheid state that would not be the case.

What they are are the remnants of a failed war who are generally hated throughout the Arab world for having tried to overthrow govts, supported the Iraq invasion of Kuwait, were involved in the assassination of Anwar Sadat, and despite being Sunni align themselves with Shia Muslims in Iran. Thats why govts in the region won't help them. And why Israel is going to win.

 

[shack]

I've answered multiple times but you seem to think I'm missing something.

Yeah. You're missing the part where you're supposed to say "I condemn Hamas' attack on Israeli civilians as a terrorist attack." If you've said anything close to that, I'll apologize. Your generalized sweeping statements of violence, terrorism, both sides mean nothing. That's just your dancing.

That's what's missing. And that's why multiplying zero as many times as you want is still zero.

 

[shack]

He could have just said it directly, if that was his message.

It is just as obvious as if he did. Only deniers would dare to pretend otherwise and to think that other people are stupid enough to believe them when they say they thought it meant something else.

 

[shack]

Settler attacks are government policy.

Government policy is documented. Show us.

 

[Frankfooter]

There is no equivalency. None. Your attempt to create one is just an attempt to justify barbarity.

Sort of like those 2012 Israeli posters saying it was Israel vs the savages.
Still pretty much the same, by the way.

You know how you make people angry enough to turn to terrorism?
There really needs to be a ceasefire, not more death.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720237012006093180

 

[shack]

- That Israel is a racist and apartheid state, that severely oppresses the Palestinian people, because their end goal is to take the land for themselves. It is in the psyche of the state, as well as the majority of the individuals in Israel. They consider the land to be theirs and the Palestinians to be 'occupiers'.

- Bibi's government is a malicious ultra-right wing psychopathic government, that enabled the Hamas, so that the Palestinian demand would lose credibility.

- Bibi, as well as Israelis, generally believe in collective punishment. So what they are doing in Gaza is a war crime. They are both ineffective and killing scores of people.

Not that I disagree with everything you, but everything you say sounds like justification for the Oct. 7 attack that triggered this current round of violence.

Going after military positions and military leaders is not a war crime. Using human shields to hide behind IS a war crime.

 

[Frankfooter]

Government policy is documented. Show us.

Read the full report linked below.
The state sends IDF forces out to back up settler terrorism and aid in colonization of what could have been Palestine.
You know all this.

B'tselem:

The state legitimizes this reality in two complementary ways:
A. Legalizing land takeover

B. Legitimizing physical violence against Palestinians

 

[shack]

It wasn't obvious to me, until you just said it, and am still not sure if that is the interpretation. To me it looked like he was pointing to the violence of October 7, and equating it with the violence of the Holocaust, which cannot be compared.

I don't buy it but we can agree to disagree.

 

[Butler1000]

Israel’s apartheid against Palestinians: a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity

Israeli authorities must be held accountable for committing the crime of apartheid against Palestinians, Amnesty International said today in a damning new report. The investigation details how Israel enforces a system of oppression and domination against the Palestinian people wherever it has...

www.amnesty.org

What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel

Arabs represent one-fifth of Israel’s population. Systemic discrimination, outbreaks of communal violence, and the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict continue to strain their ties with Israel’s Jew…

www.cfr.org

This one is a much more balanced take on things.

 

[shack]

Read the full report linked below.
The state sends IDF forces out to back up settler terrorism and aid in colonization of what could have been Palestine.
You know all this.

B'tselem:

The state legitimizes this reality in two complementary ways:
A. Legalizing land takeover
B. Legitimizing physical violence against Palestinians

That's their interpretation.

Official government policy is documented. I'll accept copies of those Israeli government documents.

 

[Frankfooter]

Not that I disagree with everything you, but everything you say sounds like justification for the Oct. 7 attack that triggered this current round of violence.

Going after military positions and military leaders is not a war crime. Using human shields to hide behind IS a war crime.

So is lying about Hamas hiding everywhere to justify targeting civilians.
That's a war crime too.

But so is ethnic cleansing.
You think this plan, as reported by CBC, is real?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576

 

[Frankfooter]

That's their interpretation.

Official government policy is documented. I'll accept copies of those Israeli government documents.

That's like saying you'd only take proof that Jeffrey Dahmer was a mass murderer from his own statements.

 

[Frankfooter]

That's their interpretation.

Official government policy is documented. I'll accept copies of those Israeli government documents.

Like the one with the plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza?
Or more like Plan Dalet?

Was there an official guidebook and policy paper for Auschwitz that you think they should use as a model?
Cuz all genocides had guidebooks and policy papers they referred to during the killngs.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717303487619281092

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720215711925043260

Or do you need something official like this?

 

[Frankfooter]

Yeah. You're missing the part where you're supposed to say "I condemn Hamas' attack on Israeli civilians as a terrorist attack." If you've said anything close to that, I'll apologize. Your generalized sweeping statements of violence, terrorism, both sides mean nothing. That's just your dancing.

That's what's missing. And that's why multiplying zero as many times as you want is still zero.

Ah, you want the magic word 'terrorist' applied instead of the legal term 'war crime'.
Of course.
Because if you're just accused of war crimes, which are actual crimes with laws against them, then you only face the law.
But if you use the magic word 'terrorist' right wing racists say that means you can kill anyone and everyone near them or who knows them.

You want me to say the word that you think justifies genocide.
It doesn't.

There will come a time when this is done and people will ask did you stand with humanity or did you back genocide.
No magic word can excuse your support of killing children.
That's on you, buddy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720288582244729063

 

[Frankfooter]

Hamas are the ones taking the videos of the victims.

Yes, they are documenting the genocide that you are backing.
You think its wrong document the war crimes?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1719967575139062172

 

[Adam_hadam]

Its not a genocide if we get killed.

Anyone named Cohen

 

[shack]

So is lying about Hamas hiding everywhere to justify targeting civilians.
That's a war crime too.

Lying is a war crime? LOL.

Using children as human shields is definitely criminal.

 

[Valcazar]

Yes. Exactly. As opposed to continue to let Hamas fester for more decades.

Got a better solution?

Than embracing war crimes?
Yes.
Don't.

I don't object to military action or to countering Hamas.
I object to your belief that the best way to do that is war crimes.

 

[Valcazar]

Lay out your peace plan, the people who you would have negotiate it, as in names and why you think they are proper representation on both sides who have the power to set terms in good faith that will be adhered to.

You are really good at bitching, but so far piss poor on offering anything worthwhile.

See.
This is the exact "Something must be done, this is something" logic.
Here you are saying that anything short of a foolproof peace plan requires war crimes.

It's an insane position to take, even for you with your long track record of "If I don't get 100% of what I think is best, I should accept nothing and support things that will make it worse" as an approach.

 

[Valcazar]

As far as Israel’s “war crimes” go. All the whining in the world isn’t going to stop them. Not presently, not historically
Has it?

Or do you also naively believe the US or others are going to March into the knisset and slap cuffs on them and stop things that way. You must.

Or you can sit back, chill, accept the reality that Israel is going to do what Israel thinks is right for itself…that none of you are smarter or more capable than those that have and failed, and when the dust settles, if some want to pursue charges they can, and that’s when the pieces can be picked up…

aka “god grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change and the wisdom….”


As far as the ground offensive goes.time will tell.

"The war crimes can't be stopped now and won't be prosecuted" is a very different position than "The war crimes are the best way to do this and should be encouraged and in no way criticized."