Israel at war

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Hamas has designed a nightmare scenario with 300 miles of tunnels and fanatic fighters ready to die. All fully stocked with arms, and supplies for months. Trained to know where and how to inflict maximum casualties if they can before dying. Their goal here isn't peace, or negotiations. Its to kill as many Jews as many military personal as possible, while filming it all and editing it for propaganda.

Thats the reality of what is happening.
I haven't seen this kind of racial hatred towards Muslims since Bush and the global war on terror.
It was stupid and wrong then and its stupid and wrong now.

This war is clearly an attack on the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank.

No wonder the global protests are as big as they were then.

 

richaceg

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Feb 11, 2009
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No army in the world pimps out there women like the IDF. No self respecting army in the world does this. They have too much respect for their female soldiers.
Those are adult females....Looks like I just found Franky's favorite tv show...
 

richaceg

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You can phrase it any way you want. It's a war crime and murdering someone's family and destroying their home is not going to make them love you and hate your enemy.

Israel has some of the best special forces in the world. They could deal with suspected Hamas positions without indiscriminately bombing civilians hoping some of them are Hamas members.
What the palestinians should've done after the OCt 7 attack is start the exodus to South of Gaza not celebrating on the streets knowing the history between Israel & Hamas....the storm is coming....the war crimes were committed on Oct 7...not after...If UN no longer can condemn that action they no longer have a say what occurs after that....
 
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toguy5252

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The nuclear attacks on Japan are actually the perfect example to demonstrate the rules of war.

First, the attacks were not punitive. It was not simple retaliation or lust for war. If they were, they would be a war crime.

Secondly, the attacks pass the proportional proportionality analysis. In the case of Hiroshima, the military objectives were the neutralizing of the 2nd General Army, the 59th Army, the 5th Division, the 224th Division, 5 anti-aircraft batteries under the 22nd separate and 45th separate anti-aircraft battalions and the 121st and 122nd anti-aircraft regiments, it was the location of a supply and logistics headquarters, it was a stepping off port for the movement of troops, and it had factories for the manufacture of aircraft, ships, bombs, rifles and handguns. Those are clearly defined military objectives. Hiroshima housed over 440,000 soldiers with only about 340,000 civilians, and the end goal was to end the war without engaging in a land invasion which would necessarily include bombing and naval bombardment and was estimated to cost millions of military and some number more then that civilian lives on the Japanese side alone.

For Nagasaki, it was a naval industrial hub housing almost all of Japan's naval manufacturing as well as a supply and logistics port. Despite these military objectives, the loss of life was still considered, primarily it was one of the least populated cities with military objectives and of all potential targets had the largest number of people involved in military manufacturing at over 90% of all persons present. At the time of the raid, it was estimated that less than 300,000 people were in the area, and that primary goal again factored in the millions of lives that would be lost in the event of a land invasion.

The result was a significant shortening of the war, the decimation of Japanese military manufacturing, particularly naval manufacturing, the neutralization of an entire General Army and several smaller units, and the savings of millions of lives that would be lost in a land invasion, at the expenditure of about 600,000 civilians. The Japanese Imperial Army had told the allies they would need to defeat 20 million Japanese soldiers, and civilian losses are always higher, so 600,000 civilians and 500,000 soldiers were compared to 40+ million Japanese and some dozen or more million allied soldiers. Under proportional proportionality analysis, the bombings were not war crimes.

The post I replied to had said Israel was attacking civilians deliberately in order to get to them to give up their support of Hamas. If so, that is indeed a war crime. That is not a defined military objective as it is pure reciprocity. It's also illogical and insane to think killing someone's family and destroying their home is going to get them to hate your enemy. They're just going to hate you. Israeli is creating more Hamas support, not reducing it. It's also never worked in history. It's a losing strategy. Either Israel has lost their mind, that's not the objective at all, or they are simply killing Gazans for the sake of killing Gazans. It was too be one of those three. It's possible there's some objective we don't know about, and possibly that would pass the proportional proportionality analysis, but no military expert that's studied this that I follow can find that. The conclusion in military circles is clear: Israel is engaged in war crimes.


I don't necessarily disagree with you. I do, however, still disagree that they are justified in committing purely punitive attacks against a civilian population in direct violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions, and I think it's lunacy to believe that the result will somehow be less support for Hamas.
On what do you base your statement that sny of the bombing by is really is purely punitive.
 

Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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The nuclear attacks on Japan are actually the perfect example to demonstrate the rules of war.

First, the attacks were not punitive. It was not simple retaliation or lust for war. If they were, they would be a war crime.

Secondly, the attacks pass the proportional proportionality analysis. In the case of Hiroshima, the military objectives were the neutralizing of the 2nd General Army, the 59th Army, the 5th Division, the 224th Division, 5 anti-aircraft batteries under the 22nd separate and 45th separate anti-aircraft battalions and the 121st and 122nd anti-aircraft regiments, it was the location of a supply and logistics headquarters, it was a stepping off port for the movement of troops, and it had factories for the manufacture of aircraft, ships, bombs, rifles and handguns. Those are clearly defined military objectives. Hiroshima housed over 440,000 soldiers with only about 340,000 civilians, and the end goal was to end the war without engaging in a land invasion which would necessarily include bombing and naval bombardment and was estimated to cost millions of military and some number more then that civilian lives on the Japanese side alone.

For Nagasaki, it was a naval industrial hub housing almost all of Japan's naval manufacturing as well as a supply and logistics port. Despite these military objectives, the loss of life was still considered, primarily it was one of the least populated cities with military objectives and of all potential targets had the largest number of people involved in military manufacturing at over 90% of all persons present. At the time of the raid, it was estimated that less than 300,000 people were in the area, and that primary goal again factored in the millions of lives that would be lost in the event of a land invasion.

The result was a significant shortening of the war, the decimation of Japanese military manufacturing, particularly naval manufacturing, the neutralization of an entire General Army and several smaller units, and the savings of millions of lives that would be lost in a land invasion, at the expenditure of about 600,000 civilians. The Japanese Imperial Army had told the allies they would need to defeat 20 million Japanese soldiers, and civilian losses are always higher, so 600,000 civilians and 500,000 soldiers were compared to 40+ million Japanese and some dozen or more million allied soldiers. Under proportional proportionality analysis, the bombings were not war crimes.

The post I replied to had said Israel was attacking civilians deliberately in order to get to them to give up their support of Hamas. If so, that is indeed a war crime. That is not a defined military objective as it is pure reciprocity. It's also illogical and insane to think killing someone's family and destroying their home is going to get them to hate your enemy. They're just going to hate you. Israeli is creating more Hamas support, not reducing it. It's also never worked in history. It's a losing strategy. Either Israel has lost their mind, that's not the objective at all, or they are simply killing Gazans for the sake of killing Gazans. It was too be one of those three. It's possible there's some objective we don't know about, and possibly that would pass the proportional proportionality analysis, but no military expert that's studied this that I follow can find that. The conclusion in military circles is clear: Israel is engaged in war crimes.


I don't necessarily disagree with you. I do, however, still disagree that they are justified in committing purely punitive attacks against a civilian population in direct violation of the Geneva and Hague Conventions, and I think it's lunacy to believe that the result will somehow be less support for Hamas.
As far as I recall one of the main factors considered in case of Hiroshima and nagasaki was that the ground was flat there which would help the wave of destruction to go further
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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Why do you think (in your opinion) she wants a ME war??
Because she is a card carrying member of a group in Washington who want to see Washington dominant in the region. With docile governments to extract oil and resources for American interests. That has been the real purpose of foreign policy in the USA since WW2. The Shiite sect that runs Iran is the main opposition to this. Its a long term strategy.
 

richaceg

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Feb 11, 2009
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Because she is a card carrying member of a group in Washington who want to see Washington dominant in the region. With docile governments to extract oil and resources for American interests. That has been the real purpose of foreign policy in the USA since WW2. The Shiite sect that runs Iran is the main opposition to this. Its a long term strategy.
HIlary is a done deal. There's no coming back from that defeat...IMO the best the democrats to do is groom a new blood....the Middle East no longer looking at the US as the Big Guy...it's China now....Israel will continue the ties with US and that will keep going...The Palestinian problem isn't just an Israel problem...there's a reason why Egypt, Jordan and Syria are keeping hush hush...they will not take on Israel conflict again....that's not economically viable...there's no progress in that and we all witness it...They would rather finance palestinians to do the proxy warfare and sit on the sidelines....now probably tapping their shoulders for doing just that...They all learn their lesson...palestinians are the easiest to manipulate by the extremists (this is still a mystery to me why)...but watching this video kinda explains some of my questions...most kids were farmed at an early age to hate on jews...
 
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DinkleMouse

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Jan 15, 2022
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I don't believe you are a military person.
I don't care. I'm still going to trust my experience over yours whether you believe I have it or not.

The above assessment pretty much proves it. Every military expert I've seen discussing this is saying what I'm saying above. They have a Marine General in Israel advising them now. Israel is indeed moving in with heavy vehicles and going building to building.
Having an advisor and doing what the advisor suggests are 2 different things.

"We have asked several officials with relevant experience simply to help Israeli officials think through the difficult questions ahead and explore their options. The IDF will, as always, make its own decisions," a Pentagon spokesperson told Axios.

I've yet to say anyone suggest that General Glynn had advised them to engage in an unrestricted air campaign carpet bombing schools and hospitals. In fact, I suggested special forces and you've claimed that's silly. General Flynn's highest ranking command was when he was in charge of MARSOC, which is the USMC Special Forces. His other recent experience is in training and education. Do you think he's advising Israel on how to teach, or do you think it's more likely he's there offering advice on special forces? Hmm?

Especially since they said "ahead". As in "not what they're currently doing".

Cripes, did you ever stop to think that the enemy built all those tunnels so they can move and ambush? With entrances in residential homes, shops and schools? There literally is no safe zone, no place that can go unchecked.
If only there was a group of soldiers within the forces that's specially trained to deal with those scenarios. They be a pretty specialized force. I wonder what we would call a force that's got special training like that... I suspect it would have the words "special" and "forces" somewhere in the title....

PS. You never explained why you think they don't have Iron Dome. Care to do that?

Hamas has designed a nightmare scenario with 300 miles of tunnels and fanatic fighters ready to die. All fully stocked with arms, and supplies for months. Trained to know where and how to inflict maximum casualties if they can before dying. Their goal here isn't peace, or negotiations. Its to kill as many Jews as many military personal as possible, while filming it all and editing it for propaganda.
Yes. I agree (except maybe for the "supplies for months" and "trained" part). Doesn't change anything I said.

As I've repeated many times, Hamas is a terrorist organization and its members should be hunted down and executed. You don't have to keep bringing up how evil Hamas is in response to me as if that's news and I'm denying it; I've acknowledged that. I'm suggesting killing someone's family and destroying someone's home because you think that will convince them to like you and hate your enemy is not going to have that desired effect, in direct response to posts that have said it would.

Now you can keep trying to divert it you want to, but that's the point I've been trying to make. Can you explain how killing someone's family and destroying their house is going to make them love you and hate your enemy? Can you give an example of where that strategy has ever worked?
 
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Klatuu

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DinkleMouse

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On what do you base your statement that sny of the bombing by is really is purely punitive.
Where is my statement claiming that? You're asking me to defend a statement I never made. That's called a strawman.

I said the attacks on Japan weren't purely punitive or they would be illegal. I didn't say Israel's attacks were. However, I only got involved in a thread responding to someone who implied they were, which is why I have considered relevant to bring up.
 

DinkleMouse

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the war crimes were committed on Oct 7...not after...
War crimes were committed on October 7th and after. Arguing your war crime was done in response to a war crime doesn't absolve you. Go study the Hague Conventions and when you understand how non-reciprocity works get back to me.

Hamas is committing war crimes and should be held accountable. Israel is committing war crimes and should be held accountable.
 

richaceg

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Feb 11, 2009
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War crimes were committed on October 7th and after. Arguing your war crime was done in response to a war crime doesn't absolve you. Go study the Hague Conventions and when you understand how non-reciprocity works get back to me.

Hamas is committing war crimes and should be held accountable. Israel is committing war crimes and should be held accountable.
And no one is holding Hamas accountable...UN has been failing for the longest time now....If they wanted Countries to be held accountable, they should've done it a long time ago....there are no war crimes when dealing with terrorists...
 
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