Is the Kessel trade the greatest fleecing in NHL history?

[smuddan]

Not this shit again

That's what happens when cult members feel their leader is being attacked ! LOL

We are only fans, not sheep followers. We will continue to question and critisize if our teams suck. Afterall this is a discussion board, not a worship temple.

 

[jred2171]

what a goal, all you naysayers take that

 

[The Bandit]

Funny, I guess people don't remember about the fleece of Vancouver when the Leafs got Vaive/Derlago for Jerry Butler and Dave "Tiger" Williams. Andreychuk and Puppa from Buffalo for Fuhr and a pick. I know the Calgary fleece has already been mentioned.

 

[oasis77]

Good points guyroch. The trade wasn't the worst one in NHL history. If you want to know the worst trade look up Calgary-Toronto 10 man trade in 92. THAT was a fleecing for Fletcher!

 

[Rockslinger]

Unless something terrible happens, Phil Kessel is headed for another 30 goal season. He is definitely worth at least one first round draft choice, maybe two.

 

[Scenicdrive]

Not to defend Burke or Kessel but what if Kessel stays hot, keep scoring goals, and lead the Leafs to playoffs?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=356046

 

[fmahovalich]

I have been fairly succinct at updating this thread and ensuring that, AT THE CURRENT MOMENT, we are able to decipher who won the trade.

Given the CURRENT numbers..... LEAFS continue to hold the upper hand on this trade.

R Phil Kessel 63 26 21 47
C Tyler Seguin 59 10 11 21

I say that....given the strengths of the Bruins, the overall play of both teams, the poor defence and goaltending on the Leafs..That Kessel has far outshone SEGUIN!!

Currently

 

[gcostanza]

Kessel was drafted in the same position the Bruins will be drafting this year

Kessel was drafted 5th overall, the Maple Leafs (Boston) would draft 8th, if teams hold their position .

 

[smuddan]

Not to defend Burke or Kessel but what if Kessel stays hot, keep scoring goals, and lead the Leafs to playoffs?

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=356046

Without Reimer, all goals scored by Kessel would have been immaterial. There isn't any doubt that Kessel is a prenial 30+ goal scorer. He'll get hot and cold in streaks just as most prolific scorers did/do. He scored on the same pace last year and the Leafs were not even close to making the playoffs.

 

[Scenicdrive]

Without Reimer, all goals scored by Kessel would have been immaterial. There isn't any doubt that Kessel is a prenial 30+ goal scorer. He'll get hot and cold in streaks just as most prolific scorers did/do. He scored on the same pace last year and the Leafs were not even close to making the playoffs.

True, hockey is a team sport. One man's effort can only go so far. It is up to the hockey staff, coaches, and the team to put it together and win games. That being said, Toronto is lucky to have Reimer.

 

[fmahovalich]

I am comparing the two...because the thread was put up to do exactly that..see whether Toronto got fleeced..or won the trade.


And not being one to speculate....TORONTO clearly is winning the trade AT THIS MOMENT.

I won;t speculate...on what if's etc. Should Seguin actually improve and the second pick brings in some value...Ces't La Vie.

Until then..we can only compare what we know.

I am sure there are those who are disappointed in Kessel..and jump on the Leaf Hater bandwagon.

I like to be more objective!

 

[Scenicdrive]

If your goaltender doesn't give your team an opportunity to win games then Kessel doesn't have an opportunity to score goals that make a difference

Non-sequitur. Logic does not dictate that. Your if clause does not necessarily lead to the then clause. Your goaltender may be lousy and let in many goals and yet your team may score many more goals with Kessel scoring the winning one.

... If the monster was in the net Kessel goal would would have been associated with a 4-2 loss or 5-3 loss and would go under the subject of who cares

Same faulty logic.

 

[smuddan]

Bottom line, the Leafs' future looks a lot brighter if Reimer is the real deal. He makes Wilson a much better coach, he gives his teammates confidance and most importantly the team a chance to win. When the team plays better, Kessel plays better and the trade will look a lot better on Burke.

If Reimer turns out to be a flash in the pan, the team will suck again next year and we can revive this thread all over again.

 

[Rockslinger]

Kessel is a MINUS 21. Is he that bad defensively?

 

[Manat33]

Kessel is a MINUS 21. Is he that bad defensively?

It takes at least 2 to tango as well. Bozak isn't that great defensively either. Kessel does need to work on his decision making (especially on the blue line) as he tends to cough up the puck or turn it over to lose the offensive zone because of bad decisions.

Why are you comparing a 18 to 19 year old to a player who has been in the league for 4 years ?? Did you eveluate Stamkos after his first half season and determine Kessel would be better ?? Kessel was drafted in the same position the Bruins will be drafting this year

I'll take a proven goal-scorer over gambling on the hopes that Seguin is the next Stamkos.

In the end, as mentioned above this is a team game. Stamkos wouldn't be as good as he were alone without a great supporting offensive cast. I think Kessel's done pretty well considering the cast he's been playing with.

 

[fmahovalich]

Updating thread - The fleecing question would suggest that...TO DATE.....Toronto did not get fleeced.

SEGUIN has been sat a few times...and continues to trail badly in the POINTS department.

As for +/- Kessel has stayed exactly the same (-21) since all the trades..ie: Reimer, kaberle, et al.
Not sure what this suggests - other than since the trades - Kessel is running about 0 on the +/-
again this stat is open to a lot of interpretation.


Kessel
76G 29G 28A 57P -21 +/-

SEGUIN
67G 11G 11A 22P -2 +/-

 

[fmahovalich]

Ok - decided to take another look at the hi paid help in the NHL. The goalies and defencemen make up a lot of players in this range - but I decided to look at forwards from all teams who are making over 5 MIL - and upwards to Lecavalier at $10 Mil....to compare with Kessel at 6 mil.

Salaries in red

I have tried to get at least one player of every team in the HI PRICE range.

IN MY ANALYSIS, IF TORONTO FANS ARE UPSET THAT WE ARE PAYING 6 MIL TO PHIL PLAYING ON THIS WEAK TEAM, THEN BASED ON MY DATA...THERE ARE A LOT OF PISSED OFF TEAMS IN THE NHL WITH OVERPRICED..HIGH PRICED HELP.

In MY LIST - Phil ranks 10 in production from this cross section of players!!!

There are only 9 above him and 19 below.

Its getting harder for me to believe we got fleeced, based not only on Kessel production
, but across the board league production!!

Sedin--- Canucks * 6.10 ---- 19 72 91
Iginla--- Flames * 7.00 ----37 40 77
Kopitar--- Kings * 6.00----25 48 73
Staal--- Carolina * 7.00 ---- 31 38 69
Nash--- Jackets * 7.5 ----32 34 66
Ribeiro--- Dallas * 5.00 ---- 16 50 66
Kane--- Hawks * 6.50 ---- 25 42 67
Briere--- Flyers * 7.00 ---- 32 31 63
Visnofsky--- Ducks * 6.00 ---- 16 48 64
Kessel--- Toronto- * 6.00 ---- 29 29 58
Bergeron--- Boston * 5.75 ---- 22 33 55
Hainsey--- Thrashers * 5.00----3 14 17
Pominville--- Sabres * 5.50 ---- 20 26 46
Stasny--- Avalanche * 6.60----21 35 56
Franzen--- Detroit * 5.00 ---- 27 26 53
Horcoff--- Edmonton * 6.50----9 18 27
HAvlat--- Wild * 6.00 ---- 21 40 61
Gomez--- Montreal * 8.00 ---- 7 29 36
Erat--- Predators * 5.25 ---- 15 31 46
Kovulchuk--- Devils * 6.00 ---- 28 26 54
Drury--- Rangers * 8.00----0 4 4
Spezza--- Senators * 8.00 ---- 17 31 48
Kovalev--- Pens * 5.00 ---- 16 15 31
Malkin--- Pens * 9.00----15 22 37
Thornton--- Sharks * 7.20 ----19 45 64
McDonald--- Blues * 5.20----18 27 45
Gagne--- Lightening * 5.25 ---- 16 18 34
Lecavilier--- Lightening * 10.0 ---- 20 27 47
Semin--- Capitals * 6.10 ----27 25 52

 

[alwayslooking]

Ok - decided to take another look at the hi paid help in the NHL. The goalies and defencemen make up a lot of palyers in this range - but I decided to look at forwards from all teams who are making Over 5 MIL - and upwards to Lecavalier at $10 Mil....to compare with Kessel at 6 mil.

Salaries in red

I have tried to get at least oneplayer of every teams in the HI PRICE range.

iN MY ANALYSIS, IF TORONTO FANS ARE UPSET WE ARE PAYING 6 MIL TO PHIL PLAYING ON THIS WEAK TEAM, THEN BASED ON MY DATA...THERE ARE A LOT OF PISSED OF TEAMS IN THE NHL WITH OVERPRICED..HIGH PRICED HELP.

In MY LIST - Phil ranks 10 in production from this cross section of players!!!

There are only 9 above him and 19 below.

Its getting harder for me to believe we got fleeced, based not only on Kessel production
, but across the board league production!!

Sedin--- Canucks * 6.10 ---- 19 72 91
Iginla--- Flames * 7.00 ----37 40 77
Kopitar--- Kings * 6.00----25 48 73
Staal--- Carolina * 7.00 ---- 31 38 69
Nash--- Jackets * 7.5 ----32 34 66
Ribeiro--- Dallas * 5.00 ---- 16 50 66
Kane--- Hawks * 6.50 ---- 25 42 67
Briere--- Flyers * 7.00 ---- 32 31 63
Visnofsky--- Ducks * 6.00 ---- 16 48 64
Kessel--- Toronto- * 6.00 ---- 29 29 58
Bergeron--- Boston * 5.75 ---- 22 33 55
Hainsey--- Thrashers * 5.00----3 14 17
Pominville--- Sabres * 5.50 ---- 20 26 46
Stasny--- Avalanche * 6.60----21 35 56
Franzen--- Detroit * 5.00 ---- 27 26 53
Horcoff--- Edmonton * 6.50----9 18 27
HAvlat--- Wild * 6.00 ---- 21 40 61
Gomez--- Montreal * 8.00 ---- 7 29 36
Erat--- Predators * 5.25 ---- 15 31 46
Kovulchuk--- Devils * 6.00 ---- 28 26 54
Drury--- Rangers * 8.00----0 4 4
Spezza--- Senators * 8.00 ---- 17 31 48
Kovalev--- Pens * 5.00 ---- 16 15 31
Malkin--- Pens * 9.00----15 22 37
Thornton--- Sharks * 7.20 ----19 45 64
McDonald--- Blues * 5.20----18 27 45
Gagne--- Lightening * 5.25 ---- 16 18 34
Lecavilier--- Lightening * 10.0 ---- 20 27 47
Semin--- Capitals * 6.10 ----27 25 52

You an accountant?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Kessel makes 5.4 million a year. (5 year, 27 million dollar contract).

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=291601

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Some contracts are front loaded and so that is why 6 million appears ...

It's still a salary cap hit of 5.4 M a year for each of the 5 years of the contract even if it is front end loaded.