I will never hate Islam again!

mellowjello

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Talk about obstacles du jour.

I haven't heard of any Jewish aspirations to take over North America and treat all infidels as the Muslims would.

Or even subjugate Christians.

The Muslims aren't satisfied with trying to take over Europe. Their goal is to ultimately take over the entire world, and have ALL infidels either convert, or be treated as second or third class citizens and pay a special tax to be allowed to exist, all under Sharia law.
LOL...too bizarre to even respond to.
 

Klatuu

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Well, they certainly weren't going to end up in North America, given the prevailing general prejdices at the time.

The British government, who I imagine couldn't care less about Palestine or its inhabitants at that time, said "Hey, let's send them to that barren wasteland in the Middle East, in as tiny a space as possible."

I'm sure they never imagined how the Jewish refugees would eventually turn Israel into an agricultural, industrial, military, and scientific success, especially when they saw how little most of the neighbouring Arab countries had developed their lands at that time.
The bizarre and predictable meanderings of a brainwashed liberal Zio
 

Klatuu

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As for me, and as an atheist who is genetically Jewish, I truly believe that, although religion is as universal as tribalism, much more harm has been done in the name of all religions with which I am familiar, than good.

Look at all the wars that have been fought over religion.

Look at the Muslims and Christians' violent efforts over the ages to convert people to their religions, whether by colonizing, or by outright conquering them.

The intolerance of many religions for breaking their rules, (many of which would not be considered criminal in a court of law) range from simply not being allowed into heaven (as if heaven exists), all the way to to execution, often by extremely cruel means, on Earth.

Btw, even if Jews are currently colonizing in Palestine, over and beyond their original 1948 borders, they are not trying to convert any Muslims or Christians to Judaism. They are merely trying to prevent being conquered themselves, which intent the Arab nations do not even try to disavow. and as evidenced by the many wars the Arab nations have instigated against Israel since its founding.

The only reason I support Israel ideologically, is because it was supposed to be a safe haven for Jews who have been persecuted for many centuries, culminating with the Holocaust, and whose survivors were not allowed into many Christian countries, and who were eventually expelled from most Muslim countries. And given the amount of general "barely under the surface" antisemitism that has been exposed since the Oct. 7, 2023 attack on Israel, even in North America, I still believe Jews need a safe haven, especially if history repeats itself, which it often does.

Unfortunately, religion and tribalism, with all the intolerance and territorialism they imply, are human nature, and will always exist.

Why should it matter that Jews don't accept Jesus as being God or the Son of God, while the Christians do? How does that affect their everyday lives?

There will never be "peace in our time", or in any future time, for that matter. :(
Inane
 

Dragon77

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How many Christians have cut people's heads off in the streets and screamed "In the name of Jesus Christ!! the last few decades? lol
And with some kind of consistency.
Timothy McVeigh killed 169 people....

School shootings are mostly white Christian males.
 
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MaverickPunter

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AI Mode

According to datasets like The Violence Project, White individuals commit roughly 52% to 55% of mass shootings, while making up about 60% of the U.S. population. Black individuals commit roughly 17% to 21%, while making up about 13% of the population.

When the definition is broadened to include all incidents of gunfire on school property—including targeted gang violence, interpersonal disputes, community spillover, and accidental discharges—Black individuals have the highest per capita rate.

According to the American School Shooting Study highlighted by the National Institutes of Health (NIH), nearly 60% of all adolescent school shooting perpetrators were Black, despite Black youth making up only about 15% of the U.S. adolescent population.

This significantly disproportionate ratio means that for the broad category of any firearm discharge at a school, the per capita rate is highest among Black individuals.

Across all global data, the single most consistent demographic indicator for mass shooters is not race, but gender. The FBI and international researchers find that 96% to 98% of all mass shootings are committed by men.
 
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JeanGary Diablo

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Btw, even if Jews are currently colonizing in Palestine, over and beyond their original 1948 borders, they are not trying to convert any Muslims or Christians to Judaism.
This raises an excellent point about Judaism and why, as a religion, Judaism has never been bat-shit crazy like like Christianity and Islam have.

While Judaism certainly excepts converts, the religion does not actively seek them out. In fact, Judaism, to me, almost seems more like a way of life than a religion -- it seems to me that there is intense focus among religious Jews on living in the "here and now" and not on what awaits you in the afterlife, which is the case with Christianity and Islam.

A major part of what attracts people to Christianity and Islam is fear -- basically, "if you don't follow us, when you die, your soul will be thrown into a fiery pit where you will suffer forever." Religious Jews, on the other hand, don't believe this, as is my understanding -- it's more like when you die, no matter who you are or how you've lived your life, everyone's soul is put into a sort of spiritual washing machine, and we all come out fresh and clean on the other end. There's no "afterlife fear factor" in Judaism so it cannot scare people into conversion the way Christianity and Islam can.

Just my two pennies.
 

mellowjello

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This raises an excellent point about Judaism and why, as a religion, Judaism has never been bat-shit crazy like like Christianity and Islam have.

While Judaism certainly excepts converts, the religion does not actively seek them out. In fact, Judaism, to me, almost seems more like a way of life than a religion -- it seems to me that there is intense focus among religious Jews on living in the "here and now" and not on what awaits you in the afterlife, which is the case with Christianity and Islam.

A major part of what attracts people to Christianity and Islam is fear -- basically, "if you don't follow us, when you die, your soul will be thrown into a fiery pit where you will suffer forever." Religious Jews, on the other hand, don't believe this, as is my understanding -- it's more like when you die, no matter who you are or how you've lived your life, everyone's soul is put into a sort of spiritual washing machine, and we all come out fresh and clean on the other end. There's no "afterlife fear factor" in Judaism so it cannot scare people into conversion the way Christianity and Islam can.

Just my two pennies.
So where does exceptionalism and being the chosen people fit into all of this?
Does it give you special status in the after life or in the here and now, or both?
 

xmontrealer

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So where does exceptionalism and being the chosen people fit into all of this?
Does it give you special status in the after life or in the here and now, or both?
my comments are in blue:

As the old Jewish joke goes, "G-d, next time please choose someone else..."


copied and pasted from Chabad.org, an orthodox Jewish organization

Do Jews Believe in an Afterlife?
By Shlomo Yaffe and Yanki Tauber

What is Heaven and Hell?
Heaven and hell are where the soul receives its reward and punishment after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the “Thirteen Principles” of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different “heaven” and “hell” than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks.

The Soul and Heaven in Judaism
One of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism is that life does not begin with birth, nor does it end with death. This is articulated in the verse in Kohelet (Ecclesiastes), “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to G‑d, who gave it.”1
The Lubavitcher Rebbe would often point out that a basic law of physics (known as the First Law of Thermodynamics) is that no energy is ever “lost” or destroyed; it only assumes another form. If such is the case with physical energy, how much more so a spiritual entity such as the soul, whose existence is not limited by time, space, or any of the other delineators of the physical state. Certainly, the spiritual energy that in the human being is the source of sight and hearing, emotion and intellect, will and consciousness does not cease to exist merely because the physical body has ceased to function; rather, it passes from one form of existence (physical life as expressed and acted via the body) to a higher, exclusively spiritual form of existence.
While there are numerous stations in a soul’s journey, these can generally be grouped into four general phases:
  1. the wholly spiritual existence of the soul before it enters the body;
  2. physical life;
  3. post-physical life in Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden,” also called “Heaven” and “Paradise”);
  4. the “world to come” (olam haba) that follows the resurrection of the dead.

The "resurrection of the dead" will only happen when the Jewish messiah finally arrives. For that to happen:

The Jewish Messiah must be a human, Jewish male descendant of King David who will gather the exiles, rebuild the Temple, and usher in an era of peace and observance of God’s commandments.
Core Requirements
  1. Jewish Identity and Lineage: The Messiah must be Jewish and a member of the tribe of Judah, specifically a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, ensuring continuity of the Davidic line (Deuteronomy 17:15; Genesis 49:10; 2 Samuel 7:12-13)
  2. Gathering of the Exiles: He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to the Land of Israel, fulfilling the prophecy of assembling the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth (Isaiah 11:12)
  3. Rebuilding the Temple: The Messiah is expected to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and restore proper Temple service, creating a central place of worship and spiritual unity (Ezekiel 37:26-27) jewsforjudaism.orgj
  4. Establishing Peace and Justice: He will rule during a time of worldwide peace, when nations will no longer wage war, and the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments fully (Micah 4:3; 2 Samuel 7:13)
  5. Leadership and Recognition: The Messiah will be recognized as a legitimate king and leader, restoring the Davidic monarchy, re-instituting the Sanhedrin, and guiding the Jewish people spiritually and morally
Messianic Era Expectations
  • Universal Peace and Prosperity: The messianic era will bring an end to war, famine, and injustice, with a high standard of living and moral conduct for all humanity
  • Spiritual Renewal: Humanity will focus on learning Torah, understanding God’s wisdom, and living in accordance with divine principles
  • Completion of God’s Purpose: The Messiah’s arrival fulfills God’s plan for creation, revealing spirituality in the material world and establishing a harmonious society
Scriptural and Rabbinic Basis
The requirements are derived from biblical prophecies (Deuteronomy, Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Micah), Talmudic literature, and codified in Jewish law by Maimonides as part of the 13 Principles of Faith. Belief in the Messiah is considered a fundamental tenet of Judaism, and waiting for his arrival is a religious obligation .
In summary, the Jewish Messiah is a human leader from the Davidic line who will restore Israel, rebuild the Temple, gather the exiles, establish peace, and guide the Jewish people in observance of God’s commandments, fulfilling both spiritual and worldly prophecies.


I have to say I'm not holding my breath... ;)
 
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Frankfooter

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Btw, even if Jews are currently colonizing in Palestine, over and beyond their original 1948 borders, they are not trying to convert any Muslims or Christians to Judaism. They are merely trying to prevent being conquered themselves, which intent the Arab nations do not even try to disavow. and as evidenced by the many wars the Arab nations have instigated against Israel since its founding.

The only reason I support Israel ideologically, is because it was supposed to be a safe haven for Jews who have been persecuted for many centuries, culminating with the Holocaust, and whose survivors were not allowed into many Christian countries, and who were eventually expelled from most Muslim countries. And given the amount of general "barely under the surface" antisemitism that has been exposed since the Oct. 7, 2023 attack on Israel, even in North America, I still believe Jews need a safe haven, especially if history repeats itself, which it often does.
You cannot build a safe haven on someone else's death.

 

Frankfooter

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This raises an excellent point about Judaism and why, as a religion, Judaism has never been bat-shit crazy like like Christianity and Islam have.
Most Jews are sane, like most Christians and Muslims.
But to argue that Judaism is not bat shit crazy as practiced in Israel in the face of Israeli genocide in Palestine and Lebanon and the words of its moral leaders is itself bat shit crazy.

 
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xmontrealer

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From Wikipedia, different modern interpretations of "chosen people".

I didn't bother to edit out the footnote numbers...

Modern Jewish views
Modern Orthodox views
Rabbi Lord Immanuel Jakobovits, former Chief Rabbi of the United Synagogue of Great Britain (Modern Orthodox Judaism), stated that he saw chosenness as a universal principle, with every people having a providential role; the specific covenantal mission is to pioneer religion and morality.[39] Modern Orthodox theologian Michael Wyschogrod wrote in 1984 that election of Abraham is God’s free choice without stated rationale; chosenness is rooted in God’s sovereign will, formalized through Abraham’s calling, rather than human merit.[40] Rabbi Norman Lamm, a leader of Modern Orthodox Judaism, links chosenness exclusively to Torah and mitzvot, revealed at Sinai (the Sinaitic covenant). Lamm sees it as both communal holiness and priestly service to humanity.[41]

Conservative views
The Jewish Theological Seminary of America, the main rabbinical seminary of Conservative Judaism
Conservative Judaism emphasizes in its 1988 Statement of Principles that chosenness is not innate superiority but a covenantal responsibility. The statement cites Amos 3:2 to show election implies accountability, framing it as a mission to build a just society, especially in the Land of Israel, as a light unto the nations.[42] Rabbi Reuven Hammer commented in 2003 on the excised sentence in the Aleinu prayer mentioned above, clarifying that even historically polemical liturgical phrases weren’t about ethnic superiority, but about monotheism over paganism; chosenness is about belief and calling, not intrinsic worth.[43]

Reform views
Reform Judaism views the concept of chosenness as follows: "Throughout the ages it has been Israel's mission to witness to the Divine in the face of every form of paganism and materialism. We regard it as our historic task to cooperate with all men in the establishment of the kingdom of God, of universal brotherhood, Justice, truth and peace on earth. This is our Messianic goal."[44] In 1999 the Reform movement stated, "We affirm that the Jewish people are bound to God by an eternal covenant, as reflected in our varied understandings of Creation, Revelation and Redemption. ... We are Israel, a people aspiring to holiness, singled out through our ancient covenant and our unique history among the nations to be witnesses to God's presence. We are linked by that covenant and that history to all Jews in every age and place."[45]

Reconstructionist views
Reconstructionist Judaism rejects the concept of chosenness. This rejection of chosenness is made explicit in the movement's siddurim (prayer books). For example, the original blessing recited before reading from the Torah contains the phrase, "asher bahar banu mikol ha’amim"—"Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has chosen us from among all peoples by giving us the Torah." The Reconstructionist version is rewritten as "asher kervanu la’avodato", "Praised are you Lord our God, ruler of the Universe, who has drawn us to your service by giving us the Torah." In the mid-1980s, the Reconstructionist movement issued its Platform on Reconstructionism. It states that the idea of chosenness is "morally untenable", because anyone who has such beliefs "implies the superiority of the elect community and the rejection of others."[46] Not all Reconstructionists accept this view. The newest siddur of the movement, Kol Haneshamah, includes the traditional blessings as an option, and some modern Reconstructionist writers have opined that the traditional formulation should be embraced. An original prayer book by the Reconstructionist feminist poet Marcia Falk, The Book of Blessings, has been accepted by many Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Falk rejects all concepts which are related to hierarchy or distinction; she sees any distinction as leading to the acceptance of other kinds of distinctions, thus leading to prejudice. She writes that as a politically liberal feminist, she must reject distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, Jews and non-Jews, and to some extent even distinctions between the Sabbath and the other six days of the week. She thus rejects the idea of chosenness as unethical. She also rejects Jewish theology in general, and instead holds to a form of religious humanism.[47] Reconstructionist author Judith Plaskow also criticises the idea of chosenness, for many of the same reasons as Falk. A politically liberal lesbian, Plaskow rejects most distinctions made between men and women, homosexuals and heterosexuals, and Jews and non-Jews. In contrast to Falk, Plaskow does not reject all concepts of difference as inherently leading to unethical beliefs, and holds to a more classical form of Jewish theism than Falk.[48][49] A number of responses to these views have been made by Reform and Conservative Jews; they hold the view that these criticisms are against teachings that do not exist within liberal forms of Judaism, and such teachings are rare in Orthodox Judaism (outside certain Haredi communities, such as Chabad). A separate criticism stems from the very existence of feminist forms of Judaism in all denominations of Judaism, which do not have a problem with the concept of chosenness.[50]
 

Klatuu

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You know shit about history or the nature of the Middle East or the world for that matter. While the Palestinians have made their plight front and centre , I’m just wondering Where is your outrage for at least half a dozen other people’s who are fighting for their statehood. Examples , the Kashmir’s in India / Pakistan, The Uhgers in China, the Kurds in Syria/ Iraq, there are others.
Wow…..never heard that incredibly lame Zio tactic before! You obviously feel strong about those issues….can you point us to the threads you started on those topics?
 

Frankfooter

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AND....he hasn't shown any outrage for what's happening to the Palestinians....he's way behind.
Not only does he not show outrage, he disparages them.
That's the thing that keeps surprising me on this board.
I'm ok with saying I voted for Carney but his policies have turned me against him and I admit he wasn't honest about how he campaigned and I was taken in.

No MAGA or zionist on the board seems willing, though some, like richaceg, are mostly hiding and ignoring these threads. Not one will say they backed Israel but killing kids is wrong, or 'I stopped supporting with the starvation' or 'the dog rape was the last straw' or 'putting random firing machine guns on cranes is too much' or 'stop attacking Lebanon and let the Iran war end'. Nothing. Nada. They just keep backing Israel no matter how shitty and how globally hated they become.
 
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