Guantanamo Khadr interrogations

[fuji]

The question may be moot if it doesn't work, but I think DQ has a point. It's dandy to say that torture is morally offensive but in the real world choices are NEVER so clear cut.

Say you have someone who you know has information that really will save the lives of 2000 people. How morally offensive is it to not do whatever is required to save those 2000 lives?

It's a version of the question about if there are 11 people on a lifeboat that only floats with 10 is it morally acceptable to throw one overboard to save the rest?

There are no comfortable answers to that question.

 

[Rockslinger]

Omar Khadr and the Khadr family don't care about Canada so why should we care about them? In fact, the Khadrs actually hate Canada (said so themselves). Let the Americans keep him for as long as they want.

 

[red]

The question may be moot if it doesn't work, but I think DQ has a point. It's dandy to say that torture is morally offensive but in the real world choices are NEVER so clear cut.

Say you have someone who you know has information that really will save the lives of 2000 people. How morally offensive is it to not do whatever is required to save those 2000 lives?

.

this isn't a real world example. its a hypothetical.

In the real world you would be torturing someone who you think (not know) has information which you think (not know) would save 2,000 lives.

so what happens when you torture the person and it turns out they knew nothing or the threat was bogus to begin with?

if you do not believe in rule of law and that somethings are wrong no matter the reason for doing them, then how do you differentiate us from them? what are you fighting if you end up being the same as them, using the same methods? in the real world when you let this guy be tortured, it makes torturing the next guy easier to justify.

 

[red]

Omar Khadr and the Khadr family don't care about Canada so why should we care about them? In fact, the Khadrs actually hate Canada (said so themselves). Let the Americans keep him for as long as they want.

omar khadr or his family? two different things.

 

[Wham_bam]

oh please...

so, how old are our soldiers, not much more than 15/16. We send them over. To kill, be killed, be captured. I'm sure that some of the Canadian troops have killed civilians, medics, as well as Taliban (btw how do you define that? because it seems to be a catch all for every. Afghani. person. killed.)

So really you want to play us vs them. What makes us more righteous? We have the bigger guns, more media spin, sharper look'n uniforms? Really.



whores not wars yo!

 

[onthebottom]

so, how old are our soldiers, not much more than 15/16. We send them over. To kill, be killed, be captured. I'm sure that some of the Canadian troops have killed civilians, medics, as well as Taliban (btw how do you define that? because it seems to be a catch all for every. Afghani. person. killed.)

So really you want to play us vs them. What makes us more righteous? We have the bigger guns, more media spin, sharper look'n uniforms? Really.



whores not wars yo!

I'm pretty sure none of your solders are 15 or 16.....

OTB

 

[danmand]

Omar Khadr and the Khadr family don't care about Canada so why should we care about them? In fact, the Khadrs actually hate Canada (said so themselves). Let the Americans keep him for as long as they want.

That really has nothing to do with it. I can believe that his father hates Canada, and by now Khadr himself
likely hates Canada. But that is entirely beside the point.

He is a Canadian citizen, and as far as I know we only have one class of
citizens in Canada, each with equal rights.

Let us take a hypothetical example:

Take Lancslad, who is universally edmired and loved on Terb. By his own admissions, he hates:

1. canadian health care
2. Quebec and french speaking canadians
3. Native Indians
4. recent immigrants
5 canada's pacifistic foreign policy.

All these things are essential to defining Canada as a country, and it is therefore not inaccurate to say that to a large extent, he hates Canada.

Does that mean that, if heaven forbid, he was incarcerated in a foreign jail for distributing right wing propaganda,
that Canada should leave him there to rot. I think not.

 

[WoodPeckr]

All these things are essential to defining Canada as a country, and it is therefore not inaccurate to say that to a large extent, he hates Canada.

Does that mean that, if heaven forbid, he was incarcerated in a foreign jail for distributing right wing propaganda,
that Canada should leave him there to rot. I think not.

But since most of that borders on Treason, it can't be allowed to go on, no?...

 

[Aardvark154]

most canadians are against you then [about Khadr], 'cause they are sure not with you.

Actually from polls and the radio it seems to me that more Canadians agree with Lancs.

 

[Aardvark154]

That really has nothing to do with it. I can believe that his father hates Canada, and by now Khadr himself
likely hates Canada. But that is entirely beside the point.

So then what you are saying is that the Canadian taxpayer rather than the U.S. taxpayer should support the cost of keeping this dangerous fanatic incarcerated for the rest of his natural life?

The U.S. Government would certainly be comprised of fools were they to return him to Canada without a guaranty of his being incarcerated in Canada. After all he stands accused of having murdered a U.S. Army soldier without benefit of ANY excuse in law, whatsoever!

 

[danmand]

So then what you are saying is that the Canadian taxpayer rather than the U.S. taxpayer should support the cost of keeping this dangerous fanatic incarcerated for the rest of his natural life?

The U.S. Government would certainly be comprised of fools were they to return him to Canada without a guaranty of his being incarcerated in Canada. After all he stands accused of having murdered a U.S. Army soldier without benefit of ANY excuse in law, whatsoever!

So we have another proud canadian who is ready to lynch someone without the benefit of a trial. Or are you from Texas?

 

[danmand]

Actually from polls and the radio it seems to me that more Canadians agree with Lancs.

Lancs posted: "you are either for us or against us, there is no middle ground"

 

[red]

Warfare has little concern for morality or justice.

Warfare is all about killing your enemy before he
does you in first. The battlefield has no philosophers
or theologians. The battlefield only has survivors.

Those back home in their living rooms have food,
clothing and a good night's sleep. They are the
privileged ones to debate and parse the refineries
of clear thinking and lofty ideals. The soldier or
marine doesn't live in that refined environment.

so there are no rules of war? do you remember the Rules of Land Warfare?

 

[Wham_bam]

"I'm pretty sure none of your solders are 15 or 16.....

OTB"

no, what I said was, not much more than 15/16. Appearently, the age that you know better isn't when you hit 18+ (our soldiers age). still too young to die for the old men that send them there.

The argument that Omar Kadhr is either old enough to know better or a tool of his parents/Islamic extremist views, is very telling about how short sighted we are about out own beliefs.

What are WE telling Canadian men as they join up, or travel over sees? Its the same thing... They are protecting their country, their freedom, their families.
All those men with guns in Afghanistan that we are shooting at... are thinking the same thing. The context is just a little different. For example, they have been doing it for way longer, fending off foreign ememies trying to 'save' them (and their women).

Oh, and while I love hippies, they make good food. I am in no way pacifist. I think if some white man landed in my country with a gun and some grenades and captured or killed some of my friends, brother, son or assulted my sister, mother or daughter. I would break out my gun and fight against them.

 

[red]

Actually from polls and the radio it seems to me that more Canadians agree with Lancs.

(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - Adults in Canada are clearly divided on the pending legal process of Omar Khadr, according to a poll by Angus Reid Strategies. 38 per cent of respondents would leave Khadr to face trial by military commission in Guantanamo Bay, while 37 per cent demand Khadr’s repatriation to face due process under Canadian Law.

 

[fuji]

37+38=75

I must be part of the other 25%:

Khadr should be summarily executed, as permitted under the Geneva Conventions, the moment he is determined NOT to be a prisoner of war by a competent tribunal.

That would put an end to questions about what country he should be in.

 

[danmand]

Khadr should be summarily executed, as permitted under the Geneva Conventions, the moment he is determined NOT to be a prisoner of war by a competent tribunal.

That would put an end to questions about what country he should be in.

yeah, yeah, yeah, you are such a brave boy.

 

[fuji]

Summary execution is the ordinary fate of non-combatants who commit treason and murder under martial law. His only legal hope of evading that fate lies with trying to persuade someone that he is a POW, and he is clearly not.

Of course the US is too wishy-washy to do what most other countries--especially Arab/Mulsim countries--would do, which is take him out and have him shot.

 

[danmand]

Summary execution is the ordinary fate of non-combatants who commit treason and murder under martial law. His only legal hope of evading that fate lies with trying to persuade someone that he is a POW, and he is clearly not.

Of course the US is too wishy-washy to do what most other countries--especially Arab/Mulsim countries--would do, which is take him out and have him shot.

You are such a big and brave boy. You can shoot anybody with your Roy Rogers six shooter.

 

[red]

Summary execution is the ordinary fate of non-combatants who commit treason and murder under martial law. His only legal hope of evading that fate lies with trying to persuade someone that he is a POW, and he is clearly not.

Of course the US is too wishy-washy to do what most other countries--especially Arab/Mulsim countries--would do, which is take him out and have him shot.

normally we wait until people accused of crimes are actually convicted before we put them in jail (we don't execute murderers in Canada).


Not sure where on earth the treason comment comes from. Here the legal definition for you:

Section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law. Section 46 reads as follows:

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.
Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act."
It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)(b) or (e) in peacetime.