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Democracies are better

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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You fundamentally don't understand U.S. history. If you did you wouldn't make such retarded statements. Socialists like you interfere far more than the ideology that exists in the U.S. Why don't you move to Cuba, North Korea or China? I think you would fit in quite well.
I just came back from Cuba. It's ironic that its citizens make ends meet or live better only by covert capitalism/private enterprise. The pretty girls use their bodies and charm to help their families or buy nice things. It seems that everybody would prefer freedom or La Dolce Vita than to live by the communist idealogy. Most of Havana looks like it was hit by an atomic bomb, even though it has charm. It's pretty obvious that there's absolutely no foreign or domestic capital invested here under this system. We are lucky here in Canada, even though our system (or that of the U.S.) is not perfect.
 

Big Sleazy

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Sep 13, 2004
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I just came back from Cuba. It's ironic that its citizens make ends meet or live better only by covert capitalism/private enterprise. The pretty girls use their bodies and charm to help their families or buy nice things. It seems that everybody would prefer freedom or La Dolce Vita than to live by the communist idealogy. Most of Havana looks like it was hit by an atomic bomb, even though it has charm. It's pretty obvious that there's absolutely no foreign or domestic capital invested here under this system. We are lucky here in Canada, even though our system (or that of the U.S.) is not perfect.
The US should have let Cuba become a Democracy. But Kennedy rejected Castro's request. So they turned to Russia and the Cuban people have suffered ever since with an almost 60 year Trade Embargo. But at least they have great Health Care.

BS
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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I just came back from Cuba. It's ironic that its citizens make ends meet or live better only by covert capitalism/private enterprise. The pretty girls use their bodies and charm to help their families or buy nice things. It seems that everybody would prefer freedom or La Dolce Vita than to live by the communist idealogy. Most of Havana looks like it was hit by an atomic bomb, even though it has charm. It's pretty obvious that there's absolutely no foreign or domestic capital invested here under this system. We are lucky here in Canada, even though our system (or that of the U.S.) is not perfect.
Without arguing with your thesis, the part about Havana is not true. Old Havana has been substantially restored to former glory, I believe that the UN or the EU paid for some of it.
 

Big Sleazy

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Sep 13, 2004
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Without democracy - how do you get rid of bad governments?
Democray only works if your Politicians aren't on the take. Look at the US. It doesn't matter who's in Power the results are the same. The US citizens thought they were voting for change. What did they get ????

BS
 
B

burt-oh-my!

Democray only works if your Politicians aren't on the take. Look at the US. It doesn't matter who's in Power the results are the same. The US citizens thought they were voting for change. What did they get ????

BS
Why did you use my quote when your response had nothing to do with it?
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I have a better idea: Don't tell other people how to live.
I agree that it is their countries but when supporters of non-democratic regimes complain about the lack of rights in democratic ones, it exposes to all what fools they are (or when authoritarian regimes use democratic bodies for their own benefit).
 

WoodPeckr

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May 29, 2002
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Democray only works if your Politicians aren't on the take. Look at the US. It doesn't matter who's in Power the results are the same. The US citizens thought they were voting for change. What did they get ????

BS
Exactly!
We just change one pack of terribly avaricious crooks for a kinder gentler pack of avaricious crooks....:eek:
 

rld

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Oct 12, 2010
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The US should have let Cuba become a Democracy. But Kennedy rejected Castro's request. So they turned to Russia and the Cuban people have suffered ever since with an almost 60 year Trade Embargo. But at least they have great Health Care.

BS
It was actually Eike who snubbed Fidel...but the point is the same.
 

fuji

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If you kick all the non-democracies out of the UN then you have a bunch of western countries sitting around having a circle jerk while the other countries ignore you. That sounds productive.
It does sound far more productive than the UN. The UN is one of the most unproductive organizations ever created and I believe one of the reasons is the level of corruption that non-democracies bring to the table. Certainly they have made organizations like UN HRC all but worthless, which is as shame--that directly undermines the goal of promoting democratic values worldwide.

If you kick all the non-democracies out of the ICC that just means you multiply the number of countries where war criminals can hide perhaps twenty fold.
The alternative is that democratic nations cede sovereignty to dictators. That's just plain unacceptable. No-one living in a democracy should consent to that. The court is too open to political interference and manipulation--the kind of liberties we sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives to defend.

I would rather have an ethical court with limited jurisdiction than one that is corrupted and undemocratic.

And I guess it will be Fuji, or the US State Department deciding which countries really are democracies.
I think there's general consensus on this point, if you are HONEST.

How about Russia? Kenya? Pakistan? Nigeria?
Nope. None of those are democracies.

But as long as China, Saudi, etc remain big players we have to deal with them.
Which explains why they are on the UN SC, which is a military oriented body. It's not an excuse to allow non-democracies on to the ICC or UN HRC or other similar bodies.

And strangely enough some peoples and cultures have different ideas about governance and human rights than we do.
And they're wrong.
 

fuji

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The UN is just ordinary human-level democracy writ large. Everyone gets a vote.
Nope, everyone does NOT get a vote at the UN. Most of the votes are cast by tyrants, and most of the people in the world are denied input into the UN. The UN is dominated by a select group of abusive men who rape and pillage their own countries for their own corrupt purposes, and their vote at the UN is just another part of their self-enrichment.

Mostly the UN is undemocratic.
 

rld

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And they're wrong.
Just because you believe you are god and have all the answers does not mean anyone else accepts it. Ignorant arrogance does not get you far these days.

Besides I don't even know why you talk about the ICC, the US does not accept its jurisdiction.

Your idea here is really daft. And if you don't let non-deomcracies into the ICC and HRC than you are just policing the nice guys and have no rememdies for the bad guys. Unless you have been thinking the US will be the world police again.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Without arguing with your thesis, the part about Havana is not true. Old Havana has been substantially restored to former glory, I believe that the UN or the EU paid for some of it.
The only good pics I have of Havana are near the Capitolio - just for the tourists it seems (the architecture is interesting, the old workmanship is outstanding, even for un-renovated structures - like the Roman Forum, they mark a time before La Revolucion when the city flourished).

I stayed just outside of Havana but travelled by bus and cab, so I saw a good cross-section of it. Most of Havana appears decrepit, which is a shame.

Your statement may prove my point - no foreign or domestic investment, just foreign aid.

Communism is an analogistic idealogy/system, just like the 1950s cars that abound in Cuba.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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The US should have let Cuba become a Democracy. But Kennedy rejected Castro's request. So they turned to Russia and the Cuban people have suffered ever since with an almost 60 year Trade Embargo. But at least they have great Health Care.

BS
Castro requested democracy from Kennedy? Are you joking?

If the Soviet Union couldn't save Cuba from its suffering, what does that tell you about Communism?

As far as the embargo is concerned, can't Cuba sell what it has elsewhere? Its economy is weak in the first place: can they sustain growth just from cigars, bananas and sugar cane? I did notice a few oil rigs and wells on the bus ride between Varadero and La Habana, Miramar, but don't know how lucrative that is there.
 

GPIDEAL

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Jun 27, 2010
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Nope, everyone does NOT get a vote at the UN. Most of the votes are cast by tyrants, and most of the people in the world are denied input into the UN. The UN is dominated by a select group of abusive men who rape and pillage their own countries for their own corrupt purposes, and their vote at the UN is just another part of their self-enrichment.

Mostly the UN is undemocratic.
Well, it may be 'democratic', but when you have tyrants included, I guess you don't get progress.
 

fuji

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Just because you believe you are god and have all the answers does not mean anyone else accepts it.
Your moral relativism will only lead you astray. Democracy IS better. Human rights ARE better. We ask our soldiers to die for those ideals, I ask you to stand up and attest to it.

And if you don't let non-deomcracies into the ICC and HRC than you are just policing the nice guys and have no rememdies for the bad guys.
Nope. I would expect HRC and ICC to police the bad guys. And no, it would not be "the US policing the world", it would be the collective democracies of the world policing the world. Even the non-democracies understand the moral authority that carries--that's why non-democracies hold fake elections. They understand the moral weight that democracy carries, so they make a show of it.

Nope, I see no problem with the world's democracies collaborating together to hold non-democracies to account. It is what we SHOULD be doing.
 

Rockslinger

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Apr 24, 2005
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A "benevolent dictatorship" seems to be working well for Singapore but then the Singaporeans are a bunch of intelligent people.
 
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