Democracies are better

[fuji]

I wouldn't have expected to have to debate this point, but it seems there are a lot of people around here who try and claim moral equivalence between democratic countries and non-democratic countries.

That's absurd: Democracies are better.

This is a fact that should be encoded in our foreign policy. We should support democracies. We should not allow world institutions, like the UN, to be dominated by non-democracies.

Agencies like UN HRC would be better if there were only democracies on them. The only exception should be agencies like UN SC which are military talking clubs, and unfortunately (something we should be working to correct) some non-democracies have big armies.

The ICC is useless until it kicks the non-democracies out.

And so on.

Democracy is a superior system morally, practically, and diplomatically.

 

[danmand]

I have a better idea: Don't tell other people how to live.

 

[Asterix]

Democracy is a superior system morally, practically, and diplomatically.

I don't know, pushing the word "superior" might make it a hard sell. Not a good idea to lead with arrogance but then you never struck me as someone who had an ounce of diplomacy in yourself. Democtacy shoved on people who aren't ready doesn't work.

 

[Rockslinger]

I have a better idea: Don't tell other people how to live.

Old Swiss (not Irish) proverb: "Do not interfere with alien life. Leave them as you found them."

 

[Rockslinger]

Democracy is a superior system morally, practically, and diplomatically.

The loony liberals might disagree with you. They think the U.S. and the U.K. (Magna Carta) are the worst countries in the world. BTW Heard that Iran will not stone to death that 43 year woman but they will still hang homos.

 

[Aardvark154]

I wouldn't have expected to have to debate this point, but it seems there are a lot of people around here who try and claim moral equivalence between democratic countries and non-democratic countries.

That's absurd: Democracies are better.

I entirely agree!*


* With the above part of your statement.

 

[fuji]

I have a better idea: Don't tell other people how to live.

I have a better idea: Stand up for what you believe in. There is a difference between forcing democracy on others, and supporting it. There is also a danger in asserting some kind of moral equivalence between democratic and non-democratic countries--there isn't a moral equivalence. Democracies are better.

 

[fuji]

I don't know, pushing the word "superior" might make it a hard sell.

Consider my post the unvarnished "wikileaks truth", and if you'd like to put it in nicer terms to make it more palatable that's fine--but democracies ARE superior, no matter how nicely you say it.

 

[rld]

I wouldn't have expected to have to debate this point, but it seems there are a lot of people around here who try and claim moral equivalence between democratic countries and non-democratic countries.

That's absurd: Democracies are better.

This is a fact that should be encoded in our foreign policy. We should support democracies. We should not allow world institutions, like the UN, to be dominated by non-democracies.

Agencies like UN HRC would be better if there were only democracies on them. The only exception should be agencies like UN SC which are military talking clubs, and unfortunately (something we should be working to correct) some non-democracies have big armies.

The ICC is useless until it kicks the non-democracies out.

And so on.

Democracy is a superior system morally, practically, and diplomatically.

Democracies are better.

But so what?

I, unlike some, have to live in the real world.

If you kick all the non-democracies out of the UN then you have a bunch of western countries sitting around having a circle jerk while the other countries ignore you. That sounds productive.

If you kick all the non-democracies out of the ICC that just means you multiply the number of countries where war criminals can hide perhaps twenty fold.

And I guess it will be Fuji, or the US State Department deciding which countries really are democracies. How about Russia? Kenya? Pakistan? Nigeria?

Sure, we all know democracies are superior to non-democracies on a number of levels, and that is already encoded in our foreign policy.

But as long as China, Saudi, etc remain big players we have to deal with them.

But I know Fuji is just looking for more expensive wars.

And strangely enough some peoples and cultures have different ideas about governance and human rights than we do. And we have to live on the same planet with them, whether Fuji likes it or not.

 

[oldjones]

The UN is just ordinary human-level democracy writ large. Everyone gets a vote. At the human level that means everyone: stupid, depraved, corrupt, saintly, ignorant, brilliant … . Same at the level of states voting at the UN.

When you can figure out an appropriately sensible and useful way of restricting voting rights to the few who are properly qualified and can apply it impartially and with scrupulous fairness, then there's hope of doing the same between nations. But at the moment the nation that makes the loudest claims of democratic virtue won't even recognize the minimalist concept of international criminal justice, so that day's a long way off.

What makes democracy the best aof a bad lot, as Churchill called it, is that it openly recognizes that we—the government—must deal with everybody, bad, stupid and good. If we want a better society it won't come down from the top, delivered by laws, police and jails but can only come up from the people.

Same among nations as in them. You won't bring democracy to the world by shuffling the foolishly undemocratic into the outer darkness and dictating to them. But if they're members of the club, they can see that figuring out how to turn people from angry mobs and rebel armies into voters and political parties is just good sense.

 

[flubadub]

Oh Fuji, your absolutism is quite sad.
You should try judging a country on its human rights, equitable distribution of wealth, lifespan, corruption, freedom of press.....not just on how their leader got into power. But since you put out this question, foolishly, I feel I have to ask you some more questions.

Here you go, which of these pairs of countries do you think has the superior system of gov't?
Which place would you rather live?

Iraq and Malaysia
Mexico and Saudi Arabia
Afghanistan and Jordan
Russia and Cuba

 

[Rockslinger]

The UN is just ordinary human-level democracy writ large. Everyone gets a vote.

In that case, the PRC should get 1.3 billion votes at the U.N.

I guess the world is better off with the U.N. (as imperfect as it is) than without. At least, it brings the motley crew to the same table.

 

[Eric Blair]

I have a better idea: Don't tell other people how to live.

+1 to that. Democracy comes at the end of a long developmental process. Many nations are only 10% of the way through it. Forcing it down their throats simply does not work.

Much as I prefer democracies, particularly for developed countries with a strong middle class the bedrock of democracy, this does not mean that in every struggle between a so-called democracy like the USA as opposed to for example, Vietnam that the USA is the correct side because it is a democracy. In order to prevent a Communist victory in an election as all predicted, they split the country and backed corrupt drug dealers Ky and Tu against Uncle Ho.

When democratic nations "get it wrong" Guzman Guatamela, Allende in Chile, Franco Spain, Shah of Iran, Greece the colonels, Chavez Venezeula, I could name 50, the USA will back an undemocratic puppet regime of Fascists over a democratically elected socialist every time to the point of a coup. The USA does not believe in democracy, it believes in capitalism by any means necessary. Democracy is just a nice cover for now.

Look at the way those blithering idiots react to a too modest health care plan. They don't just find it ideologically difficult, the find it "un American" they try to make it "unconstitutional"

Source, history.

 

[Greekstar]

Democracies are the best until the electorate votes themselves bread and circuses.
Which I think is the state we are in now.

 

[Eric Blair]

Democracies are the best until the electorate votes themselves bread and circuses.
Which I think is the state we are in now.

We can see the insanity of democracy in the USA where people seem to be unaware that:

Tax cuts for the rich do not stimulate the economy but they do add to the deficit
Military spending is the primary source of the deficit
The solution to all American problems involves increasing taxes on the rich and radical reductions in military spending.

 

[dirk076]

+1 to that. Democracy comes at the end of a long developmental process. Many nations are only 10% of the way through it. Forcing it down their throats simply does not work.

Much as I prefer democracies, particularly for developed countries with a strong middle class the bedrock of democracy, this does not mean that in every struggle between a so-called democracy like the USA as opposed to for example, Vietnam that the USA is the correct side because it is a democracy. In order to prevent a Communist victory in an election as all predicted, they split the country and backed corrupt drug dealers Ky and Tu against Uncle Ho.

When democratic nations "get it wrong" Guzman Guatamela, Allende in Chile, Franco Spain, Shah of Iran, Greece the colonels, Chavez Venezeula, I could name 50, the USA will back an undemocratic puppet regime of Fascists over a democratically elected socialist every time to the point of a coup. The USA does not believe in democracy, it believes in capitalism by any means necessary. Democracy is just a nice cover for now.

Look at the way those blithering idiots react to a too modest health care plan. They don't just find it ideologically difficult, the find it "un American" they try to make it "unconstitutional"

Source, history.

You fundamentally don't understand U.S. history. If you did you wouldn't make such retarded statements. Socialists like you interfere far more than the ideology that exists in the U.S. Why don't you move to Cuba, North Korea or China? I think you would fit in quite well.

 

[hinz]

Democracy creates a futile ground for gridlock, populism, lobbying and NIMBY.

Nothing wrong with that but don't bitch things/policies are bogged down and not evolved as fast as needed. You get what you pay and vote for.

 

[hinz]

You fundamentally don't understand U.S. history. If you did you wouldn't make such retarded statements. Socialists like you interfere far more than the ideology that exists in the U.S. Why don't you move to Cuba, North Korea or China? I think you would fit in quite well.

Doubtful little Eric could fit in since his last name is not Castro or Kim, or Hu/Xi. The last name Blair is related to "Poodle-ism".

 

[WoodPeckr]

Tax cuts for the rich do not stimulate the economy but they do add to the deficit
Military spending is the primary source of the deficit
The solution to all American problems involves increasing taxes on the rich and radical reductions in military spending.

+1!!!

And that IS the way the Plutocracy running the USA wants it!...

They reject your solution.

 

[WoodPeckr]

Democracy is a superior system morally, practically, and diplomatically.

In theory you are correct.
However you are silly if you think the US in a true Democracy.
A corrupt Corporatist Plutocracy better describes the USA today.