Blue Jays 2009
- Thread starter salsamarc
- Start date
I don't know if I posted my thoughts here; but this is why I have always been against paying 'top dollar' for closers. Who needs to pay 6+ million for a guy who gets three outs in a game that the team has the lead in, in the last inning?? Yes, as a Yankee fan I appreciate everything Mariano has done; I just don't 'value' ($$$) it the way many teams seem to. I just call it doing you job. If a pitcher cannot regularly get three out before allowing a run, he should not be a Major League pittcher.
(Hopefully this will begin to calm the hostile attitude toward me for being a Yankee fan... not that I care...go BOMBERS. I love my Yanks, but I'm an armchair GM who feels he can do better than CASHman.)
Anybody want to appoint me as TERB's 'Yankee Fan, who is a Baseball Fan, who will give his objective opinion'?
(Hopefully this will begin to calm the hostile attitude toward me for being a Yankee fan... not that I care...go BOMBERS. I love my Yanks, but I'm an armchair GM who feels he can do better than CASHman.)
Anybody want to appoint me as TERB's 'Yankee Fan, who is a Baseball Fan, who will give his objective opinion'?
No argument here. The "save" is the most useless stat in sports. How many times have you seen a starting pitcher cruising along only to be pulled so some yo yo can get a "save"?Toke said:
Get a save and use this 'useless stat' to increase their contract demands. Scott Downs must be jumping for joy. Holds don't earn $$$, 'Saves' do.Rockslinger said:
If I were a GM, I would develop a 'pen that gets me outs (strikeouts/ground outs) and choose the best of those to be my 'closer' (I would put greater weight toward strikeouts).
Here is 'K-Rod' setting a record for 'Saves'. Great. You did your job once the team (lineup, starters, bullpen) left the game within three runs in the last inning... Here's a Save, and here's a contract. I would want him on my team. However, not at the $$$ he demands.
Oh crap, thanx for clueing me inpdson2 said:
Not much going on for arms down there: http://lasvegas.51s.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=400&stn=true&sid=t400
The Jays/Red Sox series on May 19, 20 an 21 on TSN2. Rogers does not carry TSN2 and I'm probably SOL because of it. That makes a total of 5 games on TSN2.
The part that pisses me off: Who owns the Blue Jays? Rogers.
I understand that there is more to it than that but this has gone on a little too far.
The part that pisses me off: Who owns the Blue Jays? Rogers.
I understand that there is more to it than that but this has gone on a little too far.
Learn to beat the system, you can watch live here: www.myp2p.eulawyerman said:The Jays/Red Sox series on May 19, 20 an 21 on TSN2. Rogers does not carry TSN2 and I'm probably SOL because of it. That makes a total of 5 games on TSN2.
The part that pisses me off: Who owns the Blue Jays? Rogers.
I understand that there is more to it than that but this has gone on a little too far.
Relief Pitchers .............
First off, I will say that I also think 'saves' and especially 'holds' are a useless stat. However, I am one who believes that a strong bullpen, including your closer (of course) is every bit as valuable to your team as your five man rotation. Face it, pitchers are no longer conditioned to pitch nine inning games. 100 is now the magic number for teams when it comes to pitch count. Reach it and your day is over. Many organizations (maybe they all do now, some didn't before) have structured pitch count limits for their minor league pitchers - low at first and gradually increasing. Teams will also limit the number of innings their young pitchers throw in a season and being close to the Red Sox, I know how they have shut down pitchers in September as opposed to adding them to their expanded September roster. Clay Buchholz being an example two years in a row. Teams now invest a huge amount of money in their starting pitchers (see CC, AJ, Johan for examples) so they are not about to over work them. Dice-K has been shut down due to a 'tired shoulder' from over work in spring for the WBC. There are very few Doc Halladay's around anymore who get you nine or very close to it nearly every night.
Having said that, good relief pitchers are vital to a teams' success. Without them, your team has very little chance of playing any meaningful games in September. Yes a closer may only be asked to get three outs to close out a game, but he has to do it as many as 40-50 times or so a season, some even more. It is not always as easy as one-two-three when he is often facing a succession of very good MLB hitters. Facing a trio of say, Jeter (when he batted second), Arod and Teixeira on a Sunday night, then the next night the old Red Sox combo of Pedroia-Papi-Manny with the game on the line, is no walk in the park. If you 'save' the game, everybody goes home happy, very little is said, but if you lose - it is your fault, you blew it. Just read the recent comments on here about BJ Ryan, some want to run him out of town.
I am wondering if Toke would change his tune if Rivera all of a sudden lost it for several weeks, gave up a ton of wins and fell into the basement a dozen or so games behind the leaders. Yankee fans would be outraged. Just as Jays fans have been all over BJ, I know Red Sox fans (me included) would be lining up to drive Papelbon to the bus station. Just think back to 2007 and Eric Gagne and you will see what it means to have an effective closer.
Simply getting three outs in a close game is not as easy as it seems to some people. If it was, you wouldn't need a designated closer, you could pick a number and anybody could come in a close out a game. It takes a special type of player to be able to handle the role. These guys are specialists, they come in with the weight of the team and 40-50,000 screaming fans on their shoulders and are expected to be perfect every time. How many people are perfect every time they do something? Are they all worth K-Rod money? Is anyone worth CC money or Teixeira money? It is a tough job that not everyone can handle. As a fan of one team, I know how much I appreciate them.
First off, I will say that I also think 'saves' and especially 'holds' are a useless stat. However, I am one who believes that a strong bullpen, including your closer (of course) is every bit as valuable to your team as your five man rotation. Face it, pitchers are no longer conditioned to pitch nine inning games. 100 is now the magic number for teams when it comes to pitch count. Reach it and your day is over. Many organizations (maybe they all do now, some didn't before) have structured pitch count limits for their minor league pitchers - low at first and gradually increasing. Teams will also limit the number of innings their young pitchers throw in a season and being close to the Red Sox, I know how they have shut down pitchers in September as opposed to adding them to their expanded September roster. Clay Buchholz being an example two years in a row. Teams now invest a huge amount of money in their starting pitchers (see CC, AJ, Johan for examples) so they are not about to over work them. Dice-K has been shut down due to a 'tired shoulder' from over work in spring for the WBC. There are very few Doc Halladay's around anymore who get you nine or very close to it nearly every night.
Having said that, good relief pitchers are vital to a teams' success. Without them, your team has very little chance of playing any meaningful games in September. Yes a closer may only be asked to get three outs to close out a game, but he has to do it as many as 40-50 times or so a season, some even more. It is not always as easy as one-two-three when he is often facing a succession of very good MLB hitters. Facing a trio of say, Jeter (when he batted second), Arod and Teixeira on a Sunday night, then the next night the old Red Sox combo of Pedroia-Papi-Manny with the game on the line, is no walk in the park. If you 'save' the game, everybody goes home happy, very little is said, but if you lose - it is your fault, you blew it. Just read the recent comments on here about BJ Ryan, some want to run him out of town.
I am wondering if Toke would change his tune if Rivera all of a sudden lost it for several weeks, gave up a ton of wins and fell into the basement a dozen or so games behind the leaders. Yankee fans would be outraged. Just as Jays fans have been all over BJ, I know Red Sox fans (me included) would be lining up to drive Papelbon to the bus station. Just think back to 2007 and Eric Gagne and you will see what it means to have an effective closer.
Simply getting three outs in a close game is not as easy as it seems to some people. If it was, you wouldn't need a designated closer, you could pick a number and anybody could come in a close out a game. It takes a special type of player to be able to handle the role. These guys are specialists, they come in with the weight of the team and 40-50,000 screaming fans on their shoulders and are expected to be perfect every time. How many people are perfect every time they do something? Are they all worth K-Rod money? Is anyone worth CC money or Teixeira money? It is a tough job that not everyone can handle. As a fan of one team, I know how much I appreciate them.
Then why are Blue Jay pitchers always on the injury list? Maybe we should reduce their pitch count to 80. Or, should we reduce the game to 8 innings (what is magical about 9 innings anyway?)?blueline said:
I didn't say it was easy (if it was, I'd be a Major Leaguer..lol). I agree that a bullpen is very important (see 2009 Yankees thusfar), but how important is a 'closer' if the others can't get the game to the ninth? The only difference between a 'save' and a 'hold' is that a save is awarded to the last pitcher. You tried to use the caliber of hitters a closer faces as a validating point, but you make it sound as if the bullpen doesn't face these same hitter. If Mariano was to 'blow-up' in NY, I wouldn't change my tune. If he can't get three outs, he can't get three outs. He's pitching badly (al la Ryan) and bringing him in in any other inning (unless he's effective) proves no benefit.blueline said:
The point that I am trying to make is that a closer does not have to face a situation that any other reliever (or starter) has to face. Their job is to get the last three outs of a game that is already won (for the most part), while other pitchers are responsible for tougher situations (ie. lasting 5-7 innings, coming in with runners on, and/or coming in specifically to face a 'tough out').
True - but many of these other relief pitchers can also be specialists, of a different kind. They are put in for lefty or righty matchups. Plus if they come in and happen to give up the lead in the 6th or 7th, well there are still innings left to get the lead back. The closer just has more pressure because he is basically the last line of defence, so to speak. Hey I am not saying this is right because I certainly remember when 'closers' would pitch for 2-3 innings at a time. Goose Gossage certainly did it more than a few times. It is just the way it has become. Now you rarely see a 'closer' come in to get more than three outs.Toke said:
I obviously don't why it is different today v. how it was years ago. There are many views on this and money has a lot to do with it. As I posted, teams invest huge long term dollars into their starting pitchers so they want to protect them. Agents don't want their pitchers to be over worked, so they are protecting their guys. A friend of mine recently made an interesting point that one has to consider. The mound used to be higher and was lowered in the early 1970's. Not as much stress on a pitcher throwing off a higher mound could be one factor why we see so many injuries. There are lots of theories out there.
The whole concept of a "closer" is simply ridiculous. Let the starting pitcher continue for as long as he can and provide relief only when needed. Can you imagine if hockey decides to bring in a "closer" goalie for the last 5 minutes of every game?
There is in a sense as teams will be out there defensive units or the high scoring line depending on the situation. The Goalie analogy really doesn't work.Rockslinger said:The whole concept of a "closer" is simply ridiculous. Let the starting pitcher continue for as long as he can and provide relief only when needed. Can you imagine if hockey decides to bring in a "closer" goalie for the last 5 minutes of every game?
The Gospel of "3"
Three Strikes
Three Outs
Three sets of Three Innings (as you can see in classic box scores) = a 9 inning game.
This is just the basics. As you look deeper into the game, you'll see all sorts of multiples of 3's. Such as the distance between bases being 90 feet and pitcher's mound being 66.6 feet from Home Plate.
A 9 inning game is Baseball Gospel and I don't ever see it changing.
Baseball is based on a fundamental of the number "3".Rockslinger said:
Three Strikes
Three Outs
Three sets of Three Innings (as you can see in classic box scores) = a 9 inning game.
This is just the basics. As you look deeper into the game, you'll see all sorts of multiples of 3's. Such as the distance between bases being 90 feet and pitcher's mound being 66.6 feet from Home Plate.
A 9 inning game is Baseball Gospel and I don't ever see it changing.
Recent audio re. Jays:
Jon Lalonde, Dir. Scouting
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090424_080747_8140
Jason Frasor:
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090423_120831_7868
Butterfield, Bench Coach
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090420_115708_7628
Jon Lalonde, Dir. Scouting
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090424_080747_8140
Jason Frasor:
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090423_120831_7868
Butterfield, Bench Coach
http://fan590.com/ondemand/media.jsp?content=20090420_115708_7628
It will be fascinating to see how Brian Burres does tonight. His record this year isn't great but maybe with the Jays strong defense and offense, and Gaston etc behind him he'll do better than his record suggests he'll do.
If he doesn't perform well, then it won't be much of a surprise though.
Let's hope the Yankees win tonight so the Jays can hold or improve their lead in the AL East.
Their current performance has left me wondering at what point you should start to believe in this team? They have had great April's before (2001?) and then a terrible May so it could all come crashing down. On the other hand their improved performance didn't just start this season - it started half way through last season, which included a 10 game winning streak.
Who would have thought the Jays would now have the best record in all baseball, and even more surprisingly the best batting?
If he doesn't perform well, then it won't be much of a surprise though.
Let's hope the Yankees win tonight so the Jays can hold or improve their lead in the AL East.
Their current performance has left me wondering at what point you should start to believe in this team? They have had great April's before (2001?) and then a terrible May so it could all come crashing down. On the other hand their improved performance didn't just start this season - it started half way through last season, which included a 10 game winning streak.
Who would have thought the Jays would now have the best record in all baseball, and even more surprisingly the best batting?
Interesting concept. The power of "3". Babe Ruth wore the number 3 on his uniform. Anybody know why the pitching mound is 60 feet from home plate and not 70 feet (especially when Johnson is pitching)?Bridgeman said:
Trivia question: Why is a lefthanded pitcher call a "southpaw"?
