Apple Recognizes Palestine
- Thread starter gryfin
- Start date
From your oft misquoted source:Nonsense the article says the opposite. You made that up, you liar.
Before discussing evacuation plans, the delegation registered its strong protests at the continuing acts of gratuitous violence against the departing Arabs by the Carmeli Brigaed and the Stern and Irgun (which the Haganah had allowed to participate in Bi'ur Hamatz): the shooting of unarmed civilians, firing on ambulances and paramedics, stealing of cars, breaking into homes and the wholesale looting of their contents, the arrest of a large number of civilians whose fate remained unknown, and the prevention of people from entering their homes.
They would have signed had they not been under:I quoted above where they said they would sign, you are playing ostrich.
so they left in fear of their lives.continuing acts of gratuitous violence
From the article:I'm calling you on that lie.
Prove it.
"The Arabs asked that a condition be added to the effect that the agreement did not imply the recognition of the jurisdiction of the Haganah or any change in the political status of the country. Upon the Jewish rejection of this request, the delegation asked for a twenty-four-hour adjournment to consult the Arab governments on such a momentous issue.
....
The assembled renewed their authorization to the delegation to do what it thought was necessary given the extreme gravity of the situation and to sign the agreement if there was no other alternative.
....
On the way to the 7 PM meeting at the Town Hall, the members of the delegation conferred among themselves and, despite the authorization from the general meeting at Khayat's house, decided that they could not themselves assume the tremendous national responsibility of endorsing an agreement that did not contain an article about Haganah jurisdiction and the political status of the country."
Very clearly they would have stayed if the Jews had agreed to that term--it was their main issue, and it is the only thing that resulted in them refusing to sign the truce.
More selective quotes.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Upon entering the Town Hall meeting, they declared their inability to endorse the proposed truce agreement and requested the evacuation of Haifa's Arab citizen's (which in any case had been ongoing under duress the whole day) because of Stockwell's refusal to protect their lives and properties.
If they trusted the terrorists and the British.Keep playing ostrich. They were prepared to sign and stay.
But as the previous quote said, they didn't.
The violence didn't stop before, during or afterwards so they left in fear of their lives.
Only a true arse would argue that anyone who left the day after a market full of civilians was shelled and the survivors chased into the ocean left voluntarily.
There was no if. They were prepared to sign if that clause were added. The text is very clear. Keep playing ostrich.
The quote you keep repeating relates to the situation after they decided NOT to sign. Had they signed all fighting would have stopped.
The quote you keep repeating relates to the situation after they decided NOT to sign. Had they signed all fighting would have stopped.
Let's look at what the Haganah had to say:There was no if. They were prepared to sign if that clause were added. The text is very clear. Keep playing ostrich.
The quote you keep repeating relates to the situation after they decided NOT to sign. Had they signed all fighting would have stopped.
A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948", dated 30 June 1948 affirms that up to 1 June 1948:
"At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases...[78][79][80]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
Nope. The quote shows why they didn't sign it.The quote you keep repeating relates to the situation after they decided NOT to sign.
And this is backed up by Gryfin's quotes.Upon entering the Town Hall meeting, they declared their inability to endorse the proposed truce agreement and requested the evacuation of Haifa's Arab citizen's (which in any case had been ongoing under duress the whole day) because of Stockwell's refusal to protect their lives and properties.
You cleaner of ethnics.
You are flat out lying Groggy. The quote very clearly shows that they were willing to sign the agreement if the jurisdiction clause were added. It's impossible for you to dispute that it says that.
Having NOT signed it, they faced a Haganah attack, and since Stockwell refused to defend them from that attack, and since they refused to sign a truce that would avoid that attack, they decided to leave. That's what your second quote is about. Certainly a Haganah attack would have been painful for them--it would have killed their armed militia, and no doubt there would have been associated damage to their property, and Arab residents would have been put in danger by being caught up in the battle. That's not in doubt. But that whole possibility is there only because they refused to sign the truce.
You are playing ostrich, trying to deny the many efforts of the Arabs to have that jurisdiction clause added to the truce, trying to act like that never happened.
Having NOT signed it, they faced a Haganah attack, and since Stockwell refused to defend them from that attack, and since they refused to sign a truce that would avoid that attack, they decided to leave. That's what your second quote is about. Certainly a Haganah attack would have been painful for them--it would have killed their armed militia, and no doubt there would have been associated damage to their property, and Arab residents would have been put in danger by being caught up in the battle. That's not in doubt. But that whole possibility is there only because they refused to sign the truce.
You are playing ostrich, trying to deny the many efforts of the Arabs to have that jurisdiction clause added to the truce, trying to act like that never happened.
Unfortunately, this exposes your fiction.You are flat out lying Groggy. The quote very clearly shows that they were willing to sign the agreement if the jurisdiction clause were added. It's impossible for you to dispute that it says that.
Having NOT signed it, they faced a Haganah attack, and since Stockwell refused to defend them from that attack, and since they refused to sign a truce that would avoid that attack, they decided to leave. That's what your second quote is about. Certainly a Haganah attack would have been painful for them--it would have killed their armed militia, and no doubt there would have been associated damage to their property, and Arab residents would have been put in danger by being caught up in the battle. That's not in doubt. But that whole possibility is there only because they refused to sign the truce.
You are playing ostrich, trying to deny the many efforts of the Arabs to have that jurisdiction clause added to the truce, trying to act like that never happened.
A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948", dated 30 June 1948 affirms that up to 1 June 1948:
"At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases...[78][79][80]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return
Unfortunately, Gryfin, it is there in black and white in the original source. The Arabs themselves gave their reason for leaving.
I think we can debate what "caused by our operations" means. If the Arabs refused to live under Israeli jurisdiction, then Haganah capturing their town would cause them to leave, even if no harm was going to befall them.
And plainly from the document we have at hand from Haifa, many Arabs refused to recognize Israeli jurisdiction and preferred to leave the area rather than accept it. It is apparent that the Arab League encouraged this behavior, and that many Arabs feared being branded traitors by other Arabs if they were seen to be co-operating in any way with Jewish authorities.
I do agree with the 2% number you quoted--that seems to me to be about the number of Arabs that were subject to expulsion orders.
I think we can debate what "caused by our operations" means. If the Arabs refused to live under Israeli jurisdiction, then Haganah capturing their town would cause them to leave, even if no harm was going to befall them.
And plainly from the document we have at hand from Haifa, many Arabs refused to recognize Israeli jurisdiction and preferred to leave the area rather than accept it. It is apparent that the Arab League encouraged this behavior, and that many Arabs feared being branded traitors by other Arabs if they were seen to be co-operating in any way with Jewish authorities.
I do agree with the 2% number you quoted--that seems to me to be about the number of Arabs that were subject to expulsion orders.
Oh, lickspittle, it's not me you agree with, it's the confession by the Haganah.Unfortunately, Gryfin, it is there in black and white in the original source. The Arabs themselves gave their reason for leaving.
I think we can debate what "caused by our operations" means. If the Arabs refused to live under Israeli jurisdiction, then Haganah capturing their town would cause them to leave, even if no harm was going to befall them.
And plainly from the document we have at hand from Haifa, many Arabs refused to recognize Israeli jurisdiction and preferred to leave the area rather than accept it. It is apparent that the Arab League encouraged this behavior, and that many Arabs feared being branded traitors by other Arabs if they were seen to be co-operating in any way with Jewish authorities.
I do agree with the 2% number you quoted--that seems to me to be about the number of Arabs that were subject to expulsion orders.
Case closed.
I agree that you didn't understand what you read, misrepresented it, and ignored the facts.
I also agree that your post above was all sputter, no content.
So here are the things you have been unable to challenge:
-- "caused by our operations" does not necessarily mean ethnic cleansing, the Arabs may simply dislike Israeli jurisdiction
-- we have irrefutable proof that the Arabs in Haifa opted to leave rather than accept Israeli jurisdiction
Thanks for playing, but you lose.
I also agree that your post above was all sputter, no content.
So here are the things you have been unable to challenge:
-- "caused by our operations" does not necessarily mean ethnic cleansing, the Arabs may simply dislike Israeli jurisdiction
-- we have irrefutable proof that the Arabs in Haifa opted to leave rather than accept Israeli jurisdiction
Thanks for playing, but you lose.
Well, lets look one more time:I agree that you didn't understand what you read, misrepresented it, and ignored the facts.
I also agree that your post above was all sputter, no content.
So here are the things you have been unable to challenge:
-- "caused by our operations" does not necessarily mean ethnic cleansing, the Arabs may simply dislike Israeli jurisdiction
-- we have irrefutable proof that the Arabs in Haifa opted to leave rather than accept Israeli jurisdiction
Thanks for playing, but you lose.
"At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases...[78][79][80]
No, it looks like it obliterates your fiction.
Sorry but you haven't responded to my points above, you are just a farting idiot with nothing to stay. Your post, a complete repetition of your previous post, without any indication that you even comprehended the reply, is just ignorant sputter. You don't win arguments by blindly repeating points that have been disputed, which is what you are doing. You are a hateful moron too stupid to figure out how to continue this discussion with facts and reasons.
Keep on hating Gryfin, nobody respects you.
The content you cannot reply to is in post #58 above you sputtering idiot.
Keep on hating Gryfin, nobody respects you.
The content you cannot reply to is in post #58 above you sputtering idiot.
