Another Pedestrian Killed

[tboy]

There are very few fatal pedestrian-pedestrian accidents,

while that is true, there are just as many, if not more, pedestrian/pedestrian killings/injuries than pedestrian/vehicle accidents. No matter what you do people will find a way to hurt themselves, or someone else.

To accurately quantify the analogy then you must include all non-vehicle related deaths. That would include: fall deaths, industrial accidents, toxin death, misadventure, assaults, muggings, rapes. These are all committed by pedestrians upon pedestrians. Unless of course they have perfected the anti-gravity boots seen on star trek.....

As for sound proofed cars, just wait until electric cars become more popular. Hell, at least with a dump truck or car you can hear the engine sounds. Those fricken hybrid cars are in stealth mode all the time and don't get me started on the electric scooters....(oh and I should remind everyone that they can be legally driven on the sidewalk so just wait until summer when everyone is blasting around on them......)

Bottom line is: drivers and pedestrians have to be WAY more careful and I'd say since pedestrians are more vulnerable, they should be EXTRA careful....but as we all know, they aren't. Some almost have a death wish.....

 

[Rockslinger]

There are very few fatal pedestrian-pedestrian accidents, in fact none I've ever heard of.

No pedestrian-pedestrian killings but a pedestrian walking on the SIDEWALK last year was killed by a cyclist. Also, some suburbs have NO sidewalks, forcing people to share the road with killer cars. It's a jungle out there.

 

[smylee52]

I almost added to the dead pedestrians count a couple of nights ago . Young black men wearing all black clothing
walked out between 2 dark coloured cars . The section of road was poorly lit and I literally saw him at the last second
and had to swerve behind him or he would have graced my grill . Of course I lean on the horn yelling what an idiot
he is and he looks back , turns around , shrugs his shoulders and continues on his way .

Thank God I didn't hit him . I've heard the sound of metal against meat and even if it isn't your
fault you never forget that sickening thud .

.

 

[K Douglas]

It is open season on pedestrians. Maniac motorists 14, pedestrians 0. Ridiculous.

Are you serious? so no pedestrians are at fault in your book? what about the guy who walked into the streetcar while talking on his cellphone? what about the lady last night who was jaywalking and got killed? its a two way street (pun intended)

 

[fuji]

The section of road was poorly lit and I literally saw him at the last second
and had to swerve behind him or he would have graced my grill .

If pedestrians commonly cross the road in that area maybe we should reduce the speed limit, and of course improve the lighting. Removing the parking is another possibility, so there are fewer obstructions to people's view of one another.

Sometimes it's just people being stupid, but at other times you have to recognize that people do in fact walk around in a city, walk cross roads, and that needs to be made safe.

In any area where there are parked cars at the side of the road, and sidewalks, it's my opinion the speed limit should be reduced to 30km. Anywhere traffic is moving faster there should be a good clear gap at the edge of the road so that it isn't so easy for someone to appear suddenly in front of a fast moving vehicle.

 

[tboy]

Or fuji: just have everyone (including pedestrians) follow the laws that currently exist.

Yes people can walk around in the city. But they CAN'T walk wherever they want.
Sure, you want to prevent cars from hitting pedestrians? Why not remove the pedestrians instead of removing the cars or prevent them from walking on the road? I forget which city it was but they had railings set up along the curb so the only place you could cross was at an intersection or a crosswalk. (obviously the powers that be realized that their constituents were too stupid to use common sense).

It really sounds like you are trying to "react" to people having no sense. As the sayng goes: you can't legislate common sense.

Since you are for treating the sympton, not the cause, why not legislate that everyone has to wear full body armor? Or at least head gear......

 

[Rockslinger]

so no pedestrians are at fault in your book?

I'm just the scorekeeper and not the referee. I keep score. I don't assign blame.

 

[tboy]

It is open season on pedestrians. Maniac motorists 14, pedestrians 0. Ridiculous.

actually Rock, you're making judgements based on your comments, that's enough.....

 

[TGirl Nikki]

I'd like to add my perspective to this thread, because I had an experience last October that helped me see the driver/pedestrian dichotomy in a totally new way. Sorry it's a bit long, but I hope it helps get the point across. It's an old entry from a journal I've been keeping for the last few years.

Monday October 20, 2008 - 3:29 AM
Whatever the situation, do what you can

I'm not even sure how to go about writing this entry; I'm still in shock, but hopefully writing about it will help me through.

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081017/081017_elderly_accident/20081017/?hub=CP24Home

On Friday, a few minutes before 6pm, I watched an elderly man get run over at a crosswalk right in front of me. A man in his 80's had pushed the button, and simply started shuffling across the street, without looking at oncoming traffic. I distinctly remember thinking, "Geez old man, you'd better watch where you're going, or you're gonna get..."

A split-second later, a car going the other way slammed into the man, going full speed. The man flew over the car, flipped over in the air, and landed on the pavement about 20 feet away - ten feet to the left of my car, on the opposite side of the intersection.

That's pretty much my last clear thought. Everything that happened afterwards was like watching myself in a movie.

I climbed out of my car, and went to check on him. I said to the man, "I'm trained in First Aid; can I help you?" but he didn't respond. A woman on the phone with 911 yelled, "Don't touch him!" and I responded by telling her I was trained, and I'd look after him until emergency crews arrived. I told another bystander (the guy in the car in front of me) to keep everyone back, while I focused on the old man on the ground.

I asked him if he could hear me; he didn't respond. I told him to blink if he could hear my voice, but he was totally non-responsive. His pupils were normal, but he was bleeding heavily from his ears, mouth and nose. I knew there was head trauma, so I didn't move him; I took his pulse from his wrist instead. He had a faint pulse, and I knew there was a hospital a few blocks away, so I just kept trying to reassure him - I knew he couldn't hear me, so I was mostly reassuring myself. The woman with the phone held it to my ear, and I gave the dispatcher my assessment - "non-responsive, head trauma, bleeding from ears, mouth and nose, but has a pulse, and is breathing..."

Then, when she pulled the phone away. he stopped breathing. My God, I thought, I'm going to have to watch him die right in front of me... At that point, I had no choice but to turn him and resuscitate him. I plugged his nose, lowered my face to his, and started breathing into him.

In First Aid training, they never prepare you for blood. They'll have you work on the dummies, drill it into you over and over and over, but nothing prepares you for seeing all that blood in front of you.

The first one was the hardest; there were gurgling noises as I pushed the air into him, and blood splattered on my face and neck when the air came back out. It got easier, though, and I pumped four or five more breaths into him. He sputtered and coughed, and started breathing again on his own, just as the Fire Department arrived.

I gave the crew a quick assessment of his injuries, as well as the treatment I had administered, then I backed off and let them take over. I was a mess; face and neck covered in blood, with red drops all over my white top. The firefighters gave me some paper towels and hand sanitizer to clean up with, and I got as much of the blood off me as possible. The ambulance arrived, and they loaded him in and took him to the hospital.

People were coming up to me, asking, "Are you ok?" and I mostly nodded and said, "I will be." I was completely numb at that point, and even though I knew it would hit me later on, at that moment, I felt nothing at all. I was still feeling a little queasy from the blood, but I managed to keep myself from getting sick. For the first time, I looked at the car that hit him.

The driver looked like he was in his late 70's. He was quiet, and talking to the police, so I went and looked at his car. I saw that his front right bumper had a dent in it, with a "Reported to Police" sticker on it - that means he had been in a separate accident very recently. Seeing that sticker really upset me, because it was proof that he probably shouldn't have been driving at all.

I knew the cops were going to ask me for a statement, so I replayed everything over in my head - where I was when it happened, what I did in response, every detail I could think of. I figured out my bearings (N, S, E, W) and approximated distance the best I could. I checked the time, calculated how long everything had taken, and put all the details in sequence. All those Psychology courses have taught me that memories are clearest in the earliest moments after an event, so I put mine in order and gave my statement.

The cop was very nice and supportive, helping me recount the situation. I was clear, concise, and unemotional throughout; I started to crack when I talked about giving him Artificial Respiration, but I pulled it together and finished. I was starting to shake a little bit, so I did what I've learned to do when I'm feeling overwhelmed by emotion - told myself to keep it inside until I got home. I went straight to the liquor store, with every intention of getting plastered. At the store, the girl at the counter said, "oh, you've got some dirt on your top!" and I almost lost it right there. I went home and threw the top in the garbage, and jumped right into the shower - I stood there for over an hour, crying, until the hot water ran out.

I started wondering if he made it or not; I knew that he was in bad shape, and people in their 80's don't usually make it through these types of things. I went on CP24.com, and saw that, as of 8pm (two hours after the accident) he was still in critical condition.

I feel so weird about everything. I don't even feel that I really did anything, because it didn't feel like I was the one doing it. I just reacted to the situation I was in, and things just kind of played out in front of me. I completely forgot some of the intermediate steps from my training, and just trusted my instincts - I don't remember making any conscious decisions. The only thing I actually remembered from First Aid were the closing words of the instructor: Whatever the situation, do what you can.

I've been a wreck for the entire weekend - I've been stoned pretty much since it happened, trying to stop myself from seeing it in my mind, over and over. I'm hoping that writing about it will help me get through it, because I've already broken down a few times, and I still have to focus on school. If things get worse, I might go see a trauma counsellour. I also need to go and get some blood tests done, in case he had any communicable diseases; I know it's unlikely, but I still need to be sure. I hope he pulls through without too many complications, but he got hit pretty hard, and he's pretty damned old. I just want to put it behind me and move on - I need to concentrate on school right now, and can't let this experience get in the way.

I need to unplug for a while...

The morning after I wrote this, I got a call from the victim's daughter, telling me that he had died during the night. He never regained consciousness.

It took me a few weeks to stop seeing him in my mind, flying through the air and landing on his head, but eventually, I got over it. So now, I'm reading all these opinions - making generalizations about pedestrians and drivers, assigning blame back and forth - and none of that really matters. In this case, the driver was old, and probably shouldn't have been on the road in the first place, and the pedestrian was clearly at a crosswalk. But the victim never even looked at the car - he, quite literally, never knew what hit him. We can easily assign "blame" to both pedestrian and driver, but really, who cares? The end result is an unnecessary death, and world of consequences for everyone else. The driver gets the guilt, the witnesses get the flashbacks, and the family gets to deal with the loss of a loved one. Does it really matter who's to blame?

Since that incident, I see the roads in a totally different way. When I'm driving, I'm always aware of trucks and big SUV's that could crush my car like an eggshell. I'm looking out for aimless, elderly pedestrians, who aren't paying attention. I'm scanning for reckless cyclists, weaving in and out of lanes. And I'm always expecting a little kid to run out onto the street, chasing after a tennis ball.

When I'm a pedestrian at a crosswalk, I don't even step onto the street until I've locked eyes with the driver, and he's come to a complete stop. On sidewalks, I'm always looking for cyclists, skateboarders and rollerbladers. And even when the light turns green, I always make sure that nobody's turning right, rolling through the opposing red, trying to get ahead of the oncoming wave of cars.

The point is, blame won't undo a death. When I'm walking, I take responsibility for my own safety, and don't expect drivers to stop just because the law tells them to. When I'm driving, I'm watching for the most ridiculous pedestrian behaviour I can conceive of, whether it's a designated crossing or not. I don't care who's in the wrong - that's for the lawyers to sort out. But laws won't make people more responsible, so we have to be responsible for ourselves, and to each other.

There's a saying I like to remind myself of: Nobody wants "I had the right of way" on their tombstone. I think it's pretty appropriate. Sorry for the diatribe, but at the end of the day, dead is dead, and blame will never do anything to change that.

 

[tboy]

That's a pretty moving story Nikki, glad you were there to help. I have a similar one but won't detract from yours by posting it.

You're right: blame has nothing to do with it when there's a conflict between a 3000 lbs chunk of steel and a human body.....I wish more pedestrians realized that.

 

[oldjones]

Or fuji: just have everyone (including pedestrians) follow the laws that currently exist.…edit…

If drivers followed the laws that currently exist, and always yielded to pedestrians, traffic would still be stopped at most downtown intersections. Like the road design and engineering, the laws aren't up to the task. They're always catching up to the practices we drivers and walkers have evolved to get around in a crowded city. Any driver here who hasn't inched through a stream of legally crossing pedestrians—who have paused in the intersection to allow it—to go on his otherwise legal way? But that's 'failing to yield' and it's an offence.

Same for pedestrians who 'fail to yield' to a vehicle proceeding in its proper course elsewhere on the roadway. Which clearly goes back to a time when vehicles and people both used the roadways. There is no offence of 'jaywalking' i.e. crossing at a place other than a designated crossing. Although you get the death penalty if the driver fails to see you, it's hard to see how you've 'failed to yield' if she can and does still whip past w/o altering course or speed.

If the recent spate of deaths is anything more than a sad statistical blip, it's telling us that we've evolved our vehicle design, (and how we choose them) and road design (and how we use them) past the point of safety. But nothing I've come across has yet indicated what we need to do next.

But thoughts of tiny little drivers in soundproof SUVs (with honkin' great A pillars, tinted windows and gadget-loaded side mirrors) they can barely see out of, chatting w/ their friends in the backseat, bopping along to their favourite tunes and only knowing where they're going because there's a GPS coaching them, offer some possibilities—mostly impractical.

 

[blackrock13]

Isn't it interesting that all this happening right after so passing the law banning cell phone use while driving because it was dangerous. Worked well didn't it? Another argument for the law being a phony one and done just for the optics.

 

[fuji]

Why not remove the pedestrians instead of removing the cars or prevent them from walking on the road?

Pedestrians are better for the city in every way than cars.

I'm not suggesting we remove the cars, just slow them down to a speed that is not so dangerous in areas where there are lots of pedestrians.

A news report today said about half the pedestrians were following the law when they were killed although perhaps they could have been more diligent looking left and right before crossing. However, that tells me following the law does not really solve the problem. We need to eliminate the danger of mixing high speed large metal objects with human flesh. Low speed large metal objects are not as dangerous.

 

[blackrock13]

Pedestrians are better for the city in every way than cars.

I'm not suggesting we remove the cars, just slow them down to a speed that is not so dangerous in areas where there are lots of pedestrians.

A news report today said about half the pedestrians were following the law when they were killed although perhaps they could have been more diligent looking left and right before crossing. However, that tells me following the law does not really solve the problem. We need to eliminate the danger of mixing high speed large metal objects with human flesh. Low speed large metal objects are not as dangerous.

Tell that to old man who was hit by the dump truck. It's just a case of not paying attention on both sides.

 

[tboy]

Black beat me to the punch: even at low speeds 2000 or more lbs of moving steel will kill a pedestrian. The only real solution is to either enforce the existing laws on the books, or put up the sidewalk barriers along the curb to prevent anyone from crossing in the middle of a road and gates at crosswalks to prevent people from stepping off the curb when there's danger.

The barn dance intersection at yonge and dundas solves a lot of those problems because it is coupled with a no turns rule. The problem with that intersection is that pedestrians are still able to cross with the green, as well as the barn dance. Personally, I think it should be cars-east/west cars north/south barn dance in sequence. That way you eliminate moving vehicles and moving pedestrians.

As for OJ and the jaywalking law. There is a law on the books, I know people who were ticketed (yes, over 20 yrs ago) it just isn't enforced. I'll see if I can find it in the HTA.

As for slowing down vehicles, does that apply to buses as well as streetcars? That only adds to the congestion not alleviate it.

I find it funny though: along Queen etc you have a big chunk of 20 tons of steel, stopping in the middle of the road, with pedestrians walking in front of vehicles, all controlled by either a closed, or open door. Yet no one is getting hit? Wonder why that is? I mean you have cars itching to get around this huge mobile road block, blasting past it at every oppurtunity, no real warning that the doors will open or close, yet no one gets hurt.....WHY? Probably because both cars and pedestrians FOLLOW THE RULES.

Though one thing that does irk me about streetcar passengers: I loathe the ones who dawdle getting to the sidewalk after getting off the streetcar and those that cut in front of the streetcar to cross the road.

Another solution is to have kindergarten crossing guards to watch out for so-called adults..........since obviously some need them.

 

[oldjones]

The dump-truck killed the pedestrian at a crosswalk, where any vehicle is required by law to yield to pedestrians. Seems to be one driver who needed some enforcement, beyond just reading the Manual. Separating the various users as you suggest is a good solution, and it's high time we re-worked traffic lights to do it.

But so far the resistance is all coming from drivers whose idea of sharing is corralling pedestrians behind fences, and forcing cyclists onto back streets because they want to park their land yachts where there should be more sidewalks and cycle lanes. Because their cars 'need' the room, and because they can't seem to stop hitting people any other way.

Sorry. Cars have no rights at all, and humans—even drivers—would all be safer without them. People have jobs, and buy and sell things to make each other rich. Cars do none of that, and they're no more necessary to the process than a style of dress or type of hat. What needs to be limited is where the cars go and how. And maybe some size and weight and pollution limits on the cars, and trucks in the crowded city as well.

tboy, the Star had a piece this Thursday AM about jaywalking enforcement; they're far from an authority but what I stated came from there—the only existing law is against a pedestrian who fails to yield to a car in its proper roadway—and they've previously quoted police as saying there's no actual anti-jaywalking law in TO. Perhaps it's time for one. That law speaks to a time when crossing to the middle during a gap and finishing the crossing during a gap the other way was less dangerous, but it's still common. However, here are many who will tell you, because you are alert and often make eye contact with drivers that that's safer the crosswalks. The number of recent deaths in crosswalks gives that viewpoint credence.

 

[tboy]

and we all know how accurate newspapers are don't we? lol

Here's a bit from the HTA:

Duty of pedestrian or person in wheelchair

(4) No pedestrian or person in a wheelchair shall leave the curb or other place of safety at a pedestrian crossover and walk, run or move the wheelchair into the path of a vehicle or street car that is so close that it is impracticable for the driver of the vehicle or street car to yield the right of way. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (4).

Municipal by-laws

(5) No municipal by-law that purports to designate a pedestrian crossover on a highway on which the speed limit is in excess of 60 kilometres per hour is valid. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (5); 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 21 (1).

Riding in pedestrian crossover prohibited

(6) No person shall ride a bicycle across a roadway within a pedestrian crossover. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 140 (6).

Offence

(7) Every person who contravenes subsection (1), (2) or (3) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $150 and not more than $500. 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 21 (2).

and another good one (pertaining to jaywalking):

Pedestrian crossing

(22) Where portions of a roadway are marked for pedestrian use, no pedestrian shall cross the roadway except within a portion so marked. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (22).

Pretty black and white: no pedestrian shall cross a roadway UNLESS IT IS MARKED.

and specifically for fuji (who has stated he likes to block lanes of traffic on his bicycle):

Bicycles overtaken

(6) Every person on a bicycle or motor assisted bicycle who is overtaken by a vehicle or equestrian travelling at a greater speed shall turn out to the right and allow the vehicle or equestrian to pass and the vehicle or equestrian overtaking shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (6).

 

[flubadub]

(6) Every person on a bicycle or motor assisted bicycle who is overtaken by a vehicle or equestrian travelling at a greater speed shall turn out to the right and allow the vehicle or equestrian to pass and the vehicle or equestrian overtaking shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (6).

Remember, when a horse passes you, you have to turn to the right to let it pass.

If I cared enough, I would also go and find the sections dealing with speeding, stop signs and pedestrians. But really, pedestrians and drivers and even cyclists should all pay attention to the law. But to expect all parties to execute each rule in full is asking for a bit much. Pedestrians will jayway, most safely, cyclists will run stop signs, most safely and drivers will speed and not come to complete stops, most safely. The question remains whether those weilding the two thousand pound hammers should take extra care in commensuration with the possibility of larger damage.

 

[tboy]

I agree flub, which is why I say the people most vulnerable should pay extra care too. They have the most to lose afterall.

One thing that will happen more often I think, is that since there are more and more people not even getting their licence, they don't realize that a driver has a LOT to take in. So while they may think the driver sees them, the driver won't.

One of the best things I ever saw was on the back of a big 53' tractor trailer. (you know how they have those slogans like "sleepy drivers rest in pieces"??) It said:

If you can't see my eyes, I can't see you. Truer words have never been spoken.

You can tell drivers who are walking. When they're crossing, or stepping out, they look at your face to make sure you see them. Just last night I was coming off a small side street turning right and a guy started walking from my left. He stopped and looked right at my face, right in the eye. I saw him when I checked left and stopped. He didn't proceed until he looked into my eyes. That way, he KNEW I'd seen him. Then he sauntered on safely making it to the other curb.....

BTW: cars have blind spots even in front. My F150 front pillars are so wide a big guy could stand at my 11 oclock and I wouldn't see him. If he was walking as I was turning, I wouldn't ever see him......people don't realize that. I learned early on with this new one that I have to tilt my head left and right to look around the pillar.

 

[flubadub]

I agree, mostly, tboy.

Eye contact is the only way to truly know that you've been seen.
However, I still think its up to drivers to take the extra care.
Who do you think should take more care in this situation, the bull or the china (in the china shop, of course)?
Or perhaps hunters in the forest or hikers?