Reverie
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Trump/Zelensky deal turns into Jerry Springer episode

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,930
8,731
113
Room 112
The moment there's a ceasefire and war ending, Zelensky's political career is over.
And the gravy train comes to an end. But seriously though how much $$ has he stashed overseas. I wouldn't be shocked if its close to a billion.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,930
8,731
113
Room 112
Because there is no guarantee on what happens if Russia attacks them again. Just like with Israel/Palestine, you can still get attacked/struck in a ceasefire.

It's a deal with tons of holes in it.
What in life is guaranteed besides death and taxes? So do you think if Russia breaks the ceasefire that U.S. and Europe are just going to stand aside and let it happen? Zelensky has to know he's only holding pocket pairs here and the U.S. has got a straight.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
14,060
2,284
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Ghawar
France has nuclear weapons. I believe the UK is
also a nuclear power.

I don't have the data handy but I believe any of
the individual members of NATO among the UK,
France, Germany and Italy has a GDP higher than
that of Russia.

Now Trump indeed very likely wants to exit NATO
and leave Ukraine to Europe. But there is no sign he
will go as far as taking the nuclear umbrella away from
Europe.

With the above in mind why does Trump's abandonment
of Ukraine would seem so devastating from NATO-Europe's
perspective?

My answer to my own question is that perhaps Europe
simply believe they can only fight Russia on the cheap.
 
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shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
53,466
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Toronto
It was clear as day during yesterday's conference Zelensky hates everything to do with Russia and so does a significant amount of Ukrainians.
Imagine that.

Look how much anti-American sentiment there is in Canada right now and they haven't even sent 1,000 tanks over our border to invade us.

Of course they're going to hate Russia. Any normal person in that situation would.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,168
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Aren't you torn on this subject?

Aren't you always the one who stating that the U.S. is pro-war?
I'm anti war when they don't make sense. Afghanistan was needed up to the point they killed Bin Ladin. Nation building was stupid. Iraq made no sense, Libya was even worse.

The stat I believe is the USA has been at war in some fashion for all but 15 years of its existence. Now, earlier many were when war was brought to them. But since WW2 it's been the opposite.

The problem is the USA made promises, to be the guarantee of world peace, to keep sea lanes clear for trade, and to set up and expand the tools to allow SOVEREIGN nations to run things as they see fit(democracy wise) in exchange for becoming the economic powerhouse they are. To recognize borders and do the best possible to maintain them.

And yesterday we saw the complete collapse of that promise, and all of the instability that will follow.
 
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shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
53,466
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Toronto
Article 5 sounds great until a conflict escalates and Canadians have to go and die in a war.
That's the price of being in an alliance. And it would only occur if Russia attacks Ukraine again after a peace is achieved.

Newsflash for you: Canadians died in both World Wars even though we weren't attacked. And on top of that, they are considered heroes. Do you wear a poppy on Remembrance day?
 
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K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,930
8,731
113
Room 112
France has nuclear weapons. I believe the UK is
also a nuclear power.

I don't have the data handy but I believe any of
the individual members of NATO among the UK,
France, Germany and Italy has a GDP higher than
that of Russia.

Now Trump indeed very likely wants to exit NATO
and leave Ukraine to Europe. But there is no sign he
will go as far as taking the nuclear umbrella away from
Europe.

With the above in mind why does Trump's abandonment
of Ukraine would seem so devastating from NATO-Europe's
perspective?

My answer to my own question is that perhaps Europe
simply believe they can only fight Russia on the cheap.
Russia GDP US$2 trillion
UK GDP US$3.5 trillion
France GDP US$3.1 trillion
Germany GDP US$4.5 trillion
Italy GDP US$2.3 trillion
U.S. GDP US$28 trillion
As you can see the US has more than double that of UK, France, Germany and Italy combined. It has funded a majority of the war effort. Zelenksy must realize that. If the US walks away he cannot rely on Europe solely.
 

The Oracle

Pronouns: Who/Cares
Mar 8, 2004
27,395
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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
Zelensky knew the conditions and demands Trump had set beforehand.
So if he knew all that, then why did he fly all the way over to America just to say no to the deal??

Also, I just watched the entire debate this morning and Zelensky comes across as very abrasive.
Thats not the way to do diplomacy
I remember a report a few years ago that Joe Biden was furious with Zelenkyy on a call once. Later it was learned that Biden was screaming at him...It was over US aid and how Zelenskyy was applying social media pressure to the Biden presidency.

Zelenskyy is a relentless fundraiser and knows how to play the social media game. I read that when he got elected. He barely gave any interviews to journalists. He campaigned using YouTube for the most part..
 
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