The Great Debate

[Valcazar]

The reality is no one who is on Obamacare will have the best insurance. It's not the Dems fault. It's just the way it is. There's probably not enough money to bring it in line with private insurance.

The particular form the ACA takes isn't the best and still needs work (if you would even keep it in the structure it currently has, which I wouldn't).
That has nothing to do with Trump's "Concepts of Plans" though.
Trump doesn't have a plan to make health care better.
There was no proposal when he tried to repeal the ACA years ago and as he admitted at the debate, he can't even come up with a fake plan.

Fighting the defrauding of the U.S. government and excessive care is where they can have a chance to make Obamacare better. There's been some good ideas thrown around. Just throwing money at healthcare is not the answer.

Nothing Trump would be interested in, but also marginal benefits probably.
I don't know anyone who thinks "throwing money at it" would help - everyone talking about it tends to have big thoughts about the structure of the whole system.

I'm surprised we don't hear more about healthcare fraud in Canada on TERB.

I don't think it is a thing people talk about that much?
How often do you even know you are being defrauded?

Unless you mean as a general problem with the system, in which case I can't tell you why it doesn't get talked about much here, since it is a well known problem in general.

 

[JeanGary Diablo]

Harris laid out 16 traps for Trump. He fell into 29.

 

[shack]

I was hoping trump would devolve into word salads like he does in his rallies and do a Biden, but Trump was not rambling and came across as a strong informed alpha , he did as well as he can but he was lying a lot and repeating his lies as though he was making a point.

Trump took the bait in Harris getting Trump to talk about what she wanted him to talk about then getting Trump mad but Trump did not break so he will not lose his MAGA base

Harris was strong, I liked her reference to his old school Wharton business school that his daddy got him into who said his policy would destroy American economy

Trump was doing OK ahead in the beginning but then Harris took over when she got Trump mad IMHO by saying

"He talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about how windmills cause cancer. What you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom. The one thing you will not hear him talk about is you,” this was a rehearsed line that Trump bit on defending his crowd sizes from then on Trump did nothing but yell talking about illegals eating pets

I think Harris won but need another debate as well as a VP debate

This had to be the most acrimonious debate ever between two people who absolutely hate each other. Great entertainment

Harris looked weak by leavng questions open but considering who she was debating it was a moot point as Trump just lied to defend himself

A VP debate would be a let down after tonights jolly good show

I thought the moderators were fair and did their job as they follwed up with good questions to both debaters

BTW, Taylor Swift now endorses Harris LOL but Swift gets votes

Harris has already asked Trump to another debate

Trump would do well to not have another debate unless the polls force him into it

Harris made 1 lie and a couple of half lies while Trump made 33 lies

Migrants are not eating pets in Ohio as Trump said LOL

Harris said Trump left Biden with the greatest unemployment since the great depression which is an exaggeration

 

[squeezer]

People know what they will be getting from Trump in office.

I'm don't think Kamala has fully revealed how she would govern. The media has generally let her just speak in platitudes. It all sounds good, but I sense it would be another liberal Democrat trying to have their turn as another historic progressive President.

That would be okay if voters knew some of the details. Obfuscation is a form of lying. It's just not a lie to her supporters.

Hmmm, lets see

Helping new homeowners
Helping small business
Tightening the noose on gouging
Lower costs of prescription for all
Immigration, bring back the bipartisan bill and get it signed into law
Codify Abortion and let women make the decision with their medical team
Clean energy economy
Tighten gun laws
Harris has called the bloodshed in Gaza "devastating," but vowed there would be no change in policy toward Israel.
She backs a two-state solution.


Here you go. a little glimpse into her governing

 

[shack]

ABC is 100% biased.

They kept giving trump more time to speak and going overtime.

 

[Valcazar]

is english not your first language or have you been drinking excessively ?

I just assumed "musky guy" was him advertising he is a complete Elon Musk fanboy, which should answer your question about his ability to use language.

 

[squeezer]

I don't need to pick. I'm not an american voter....but, when Trump said he will build a wall, he built it...Kamala "Biden is in his best shape ever and cognitive" Harris didn't lie to you?
What's your pick?

What wall did he build? You are a funny guy.

 

[shack]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1833708612734034234

All of our righties, along RFK can do nothing but try to shoot the messenger. That's all that they have.

 

[Valcazar]

I didn't think the debate was the blowout it has been portrayed. I still give Harris the W, but not the 10-5 or 10-6 (boxing 10 point must system), more 10-9 at best 10-8. Yes, Trump did firehose his lies about his economy but the fact Harris didn't respond I think was rather effective by Trump to folks who are too busy to dig up stats.

That's one of the reasons Trump is so upset about the fact checking, of course.
Being able to win just by lying more and faster is something he feels he should be allowed to do.

I think how she started out not answering the first question and went right into her campaign speech bugged me too.
She let a lot of things go. And Trump powered through the moderators on more than one occasion thus getting the final word much more than 50% of the time (I could be wrong, it felt that way). He did get 5 more minutes of speaking time.

I think how strong a win you think it is depends a lot on how you view that behavior.
For a lot of people, him ranting like a goof and powering over the moderators with bullshit makes him look worse, not better.
For others, it makes him look like she was unable to stop him or makes him look powerful.

I'm clearly in the former camp, but I have to acknowledge the latter exists.

However, she gutted him on abortion and the crowd size thing made him look pathetic.

However, overall she accomplished goal #1 is she has a strong presence, gave the impression she was in charge, without coming across as a whinger. Thus more people now can envision her in charge. But IMHO it was not a blowout.

I think it has to have been viewed a blowout by the GOP and Trump because of the reaction here and elsewhere.
Panic tweeting by Mitch.
Trump coming out to the spin room himself.
Lots of cope.
Even the media not covering for him and trying to minimize it much.

Part of all that may be just that when someone calls their shot and then executes, it looks worse than the strategy being a surprise.
For a few weeks the whole conversation has been "Harris and her team intend to get under his skin and bait him" along with "Trump's team is working to prevent him from being baited".

And then she walked on stage, baited him, and he took the bait.

So I think a lot of people are giving her extra points for the called shot.

 

[squeezer]

It's funny how, looking at Mitch's panic-tweeting, the GOP just kind of admits up front that Trump thinks being fact-checked is unfair to him,
I've seen people actually take this position before - that all fact-checking needs to be done by the other candidate, so that the bigger liar has the advantage.

That ABC did it all surprises me (CNN put into their rules that they wouldn't do that and I thought it was supposed to be the same rules).
Even though it probably wasn't much, I am sure any push back must have been viewed as wildly disrespectful and unfair by Trump and his supporters.

Whiny babies is what they are. If Kamala goes on FOX then we will see a couple of bias moderators.

 

[Valcazar]

He never actually talks about immigration. He instead dog whistles by saying millions are violently taking over cities and eating pets, which while in 2016 could have created a huge stir, in 2024, doesn't invoke the same reaction. So I am afraid this strategy isn't really working for him like it used to anymore.

"It's not working as well as it was in 2016" is perfectly reasonable statement.
I'm not sure if it is true and I'm not sure how you would measure that, but I don't think it is an unreasonable position to take.

 

[WyattEarp]

Hmmm, lets see

Helping new homeowners
Helping small business
Tightening the noose on gouging
Lower costs of prescription for all
Immigration, bring back the bipartisan bill and get it signed into law
Codify Abortion and let women make the decision with their medical team
Clean energy economy
Tighten gun laws
Harris has called the bloodshed in Gaza "devastating," but vowed there would be no change in policy toward Israel.
She backs a two-state solution.

Here you go. a little glimpse into her governing

Do you have a background in business with some university-level economics?

Giving new homeowners money to buy homes won't make housing more affordable. It will only drive prices up in an inventory crunch. The U.S. and Canada have to build more housing not finance more purchases.

Helping small businesses more than we currently have will lead to the big govt. loan write-offs. Everyone who I know who is capable of running a business and wants to start one, can start a business. There is no shortage of capital for qualified applicants as they would say. Our current Small Business Administration loan system suffices and it has the added feature of favoring minority businesses. I personally think its a large slush fund to win political favor with certain groups.

Price controls have never worked anywhere. Stop printing and spending. We're well on are way to the former. Thanks Fed Chairman Jerome Powell.

Lower prescription prices sounds good in principle, but capitalism has given us incredible health and long lives. It wasn't given to us by our governments. Otherwise, China and Russia would have been cranking out medical breakthroughs. Just be happy Canada can free ride on the U.S. for pharmaceuticals and other medical products.

How bout the Administration in office just gets tough on immigration? Oh yeah, they are. They started six months ago. This is not just an issue of the U.S. government trying to ignore its populace on the matter, it's a Western phenomenon.

Okay, codify abortion. 15 weeks, 20 weeks?

Hmm, clean energy. The U.S. has gone down the path of Germany and others by throwing huge money at the issue with limited results. The losses on U.S. green energy loans is apparently in the tens of billions. Most Americans aren't chomping on the bit to buy subsidized electric cars. My microwave and I agree. Nuke it!!! Nuclear energy is the only economical and reliable replacement for fossil fuels.

Tighten gun laws, but also deal with problematic young males. Put the fear of the law in misguided parents with fucked up sons.

Sorry, I really don't know where Harris stands on the Palestinian-Israel conflict. Most everyone wants a two state solution. Hell, even the Palestinians want a two state solution.......one to be a free Palestine, the other an ash heap formerly known as Israel.

I can see you favor government solutions to almost everything. My experience on this earth tells me that even when a government solution is having no effect it's almost impossible to roll it back. Failure to deal with problems is often rewarded with more money.

 

[Valcazar]

That's called an El Gato Supremo at my local tortas shop.

Is Valcazar going to call this post racist because I tied guacamole to the Mexican culture?

Why would I do something so nonsensical and pointless?

 

[squeezer]

Do you have a background in business with some university-level economics?

Giving new homeowners money to buy homes won't make housing more affordable. It will only drive prices up in an inventory crunch. The U.S. and Canada have to build more housing not finance more purchases.

Helping small businesses more than we currently have will lead to the big govt. loan write-offs. Everyone who I know who is capable of running a business and wants to start one, can start a business. There is no shortage of capital for qualified applicants as they would say. Our current Small Business Administration loan system suffices and it has the added feature of favoring minority businesses. I personally think its a large slush fund to win political favor with certain groups.

Price controls have never worked anywhere. Stop printing and spending. We're well on are way to the former. Thanks Fed Chairman Jerome Powell.

Lower prescription prices sounds good in principle, but capitalism has given us incredible health and long lives. It wasn't given to us by our governments. Otherwise, China and Russia would have been cranking out medical breakthroughs. Just be happy Canada can free ride on the U.S. for pharmaceuticals and other medical products.

How bout the Administration in office just gets tough on immigration? Oh yeah, they are. They started six months ago. This is not just an issue of the U.S. government trying to ignore its populace on the matter, it's a Western phenomenon.

Okay, codify abortion. 15 weeks, 20 weeks?

Hmm, clean energy. The U.S. has gone down the path of Germany and others by throwing huge money at the issue with limited results. The losses on U.S. green energy loans is apparently in the tens of billions. Most Americans aren't chomping on the bit to buy subsidized electric cars. My microwave and I agree. Nuke it!!! Nuclear energy is the only economical and reliable replacement for fossil fuels.

Tighten gun laws, but also deal with problematic young males. Put the fear of the law in misguided parents with fucked up sons.

Sorry, I really don't know where Harris stands on the Palestinian-Israel conflict. Most everyone wants a two state solution. Hell, even the Palestinians want a two state solution.......one to be a free Palestine, the other an ash heap formerly known as Israel.

I can see you favor government solutions to almost everything. My experience on this earth tells me that even when a government solution is having no effect it's almost impossible to roll it back. Failure to deal with problems is often rewarded with more money.

All of a sudden you're debating and explaining her policies to me? Wait, didn't yu say she has no policies??

 

[The Oracle]

Do you have a background in business with some university-level economics?

Christ he failed Hustlers University....

 

[Valcazar]

Because i do not believe the conservator will fix shit.

Canada needs immigrants to keep its economy afloat. Yet we have no where to house them! We are lacking 1 million houses!

I am thinking might as well go ndp! I prefer the socialist pathway to the greedy capitalist one.

That's a housing policy issue more than an immigration one, I think.

 

[Valcazar]

That's not really true, is it?

I can think of a lot of wars that didn't end in negotiations.

I can't.
I think we might be thinking of negotiations differently.

Even a surrender is usually negotiated.
That isn't an EQUAL negotiation, but it still is one.

There are all sorts of things that might happen. I don't think any of the likely ones involve negotiation.

I can foresee military or economic collapse to one or both combatants happening more likely than negotiation, the simple reason being that Putin is not perceived as an ethical player who will embrace and stand by the negotiated outcome.

If Putin dies, perhaps negotiations might be slightly more possible. I emphasize the word "slightly".

If there is military collapse and the sides agree to stop fighting, that's a negotiation, isn't it?

 

[xmontrealer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1833682772323397895

FACT CHECK:

During the Presidential debate tonight,
@KamalaHarris
and ABC
@ABC
said there “were no credible reports” of Haitian immigrants eating people’s pets and local geese… That is a lie. Here’s a copy of the official police communications from Springfield, Ohio which proves police did in fact encounter Haitian illegals who each killed a goose. Read the highlighted sections: “2 males. 2 females. All Haitian.” “Each had 2 Goose” “4 geese stolen”. “They were speaking Haitian Creole” Kamala Harris and ABC are lying.

Hey, "Meat's meat and a man's gotta eat!"

 

[mandrill]

I can't.
I think we might be thinking of negotiations differently.

Even a surrender is usually negotiated.
That isn't an EQUAL negotiation, but it still is one.

Sure. Doenitz signed a surrender in May 1945. That wasn't what I would call a negotiation.

The Germans also signed a surrender in November 1918. Not really a negotiation.

Lots of other examples

If there is military collapse and the sides agree to stop fighting, that's a negotiation, isn't it?

no

 

[xmontrealer]

What bothers me most about Kamala is that she was participating willingly and enthusiastically in the "Great Biden Lie", that Biden was competent and a suitable candidate for another 4 years as President, despite her intimate knowledge of the actual facts.

This was essentially dishonest, and she was prepared to back him all the way up to the election, in the knowledge that sooner or later she would become the de facto President, with the unacknowledged, but fully expected, participation and guidance of Barack Obama and the rest of his crew.

More shameful than anything Trump has ever done in his Presidential duties.