So if this isn't a long standing USA policy then you are stating Joe Biden is solely responsible for starting it, delivering the arms that are being used, and his Genocide Joe moniker is correct.Ahh, so we are back to the "This is a thing I - Butler - believe, therefore it must be true" standard?
Are you now denying that you said Israel should commit war crimes (such as offering no quarter)?
1- Pro Israel vote is tiny, both here and in the US. Even amongst Jews support for zionism is fading.What our Hamas-loving friend overlooks is that any overt move by Biden to a forthright pro Hamas policy position will lead to 2 overwhelming negative counter-reactions:
1. Support from pro Israel voters will bleed heavily to the GOP.
2. There will be factional schism and in fighting amidst Dems in heavily Jewish areas, such as NYC! That in turn will lead to a decrease in funding and Dem voter apathy. Neither thereof being good things in an election year.
There is no dilemma.But since she won't, you have a dilemma about what to do with your vote.
It would be nice if the US had an electoral system that didn't create that problem, but it does.
Voting for Biden also won't change the system, so why should I choose that?Then why are you fixated on not voting or third party voting, which will accomplish none of this?
Genocide is a red line, as is rape and fraud. I personally won't vote for anyone who is a rapist, conman or genocidal.This is all about actually voting though.
It is about thinking through the consequences of voting in the system as it is and making choices.
Or are you now saying just "anyone who takes AIPAC money must be voted out regardless of any other position they take"?
Which is very possible with you.
Is that what you tell Maple Leaf and Blue Jays fans?So you've just decided to abandon reality completely at this point?
I'm saying that months ago 57% of those who voted for Biden last time said Israel is committing genocide. Aiding genocide is a red line for me. I wouldn't vote for Pol Pot, I wouldn't vote for Hitler and I wouldn't vote for Netanyahu or Biden. You argue that you have to vote for them because they are the only ones that can win.You're the one who keeps saying he has to lose to make the dems learn and that even him changing his position wouldn't be enough because it is too late and he has to lose.
Right, so you'd vote for Hitler because he'd promise better university funding and because it wouldn't reflect on your morality.Of course your vote isn't an illustration of your personal morality.
Who on earth would want to pretend that it is in a compromised system?
That's the same idiocy as "You think Capitalism is a problem, and yet you still use money" as an argument.
Telling people they are stupid for not voting the way you want them to vote isn't pointing out reality. All that's doing is pointing out your own ivory tower belief in the supremacy of your own views. Arguing that people should vote for genocide based on your own supremacist belief in your own intellect works only to taint your own argument. Trying to argue that its counter productive to not 'reward' genocide while arguing that your own understanding of history and politics is itself supremacist is an automatic failing grade in reality.Of course they can!
And pointing out that voting that way is stupid and counter-productive is just pointing out reality to them.
That you don't like me pointing out reality doesn't prevent reality from existing.
People who voted against a candidate because of their hair style will also be voting in an extremely stupid way.
I'm glad you understand this.
Your argument is that you must vote dishonestly to fix the system?That you cling to this delusion is the whole point of this argument and really I should drop it because it is clear you are never going to abandon your fantasy.
The First Past the Post system does not allow for that.
In fact, it works against it.
This is the whole point of why it needs to be changed.
Voting "honestly" in this system leads to worse outcomes.
Until you understand that, you understand nothing.
Your superior understanding argues you must vote 'dishonestly' to fix a system by 'rewarding' someone you admit is aiding genocide.And your argument would be silly and ridiculous, because you don't understand voting systems.
Netanyahu wants war with Iran but wants the US to fight it on their behalf.One that has to be careful about how much they escalate a war.
But Bibi and company have talked about finding ways to strike at Iran as well.
It isn't like they don't want to do it, they just don't think they can get away with either right now.
So explain it. Is it more genocide of an ongoing genocide? So more people will die, which they already are. Yes we know. Things can always be much worse. But that is like saying the Holocaust could have been much worse. It doesn't make much sense.You think this is Israel with no restraints?
Dear god.
That is an outright lie. We are talking about Biden and Trump and the differences between them. Where did I say the US does not have any influence on Israeli policy? My criticism is precisely that, despite having the influence, they don't do anything except enable Israel.Because you just said that "Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed."
In other words, there is nothing that can be done.
I am extremely interested and I see no tangible impact that works for the Palestinian cause. What I see is unwavering American support for Israel on both sides of the aisle. What do you have to show, that proves I am wrong and you are right? Specifically, what?Then you should be EXTREMELY interested in every shift in degree of support, since it has such an important impact.
No people dont disagree with me. Who is it that is disagreeing with me completely? The moniker "Genocide Joe" exists for a reason. Would Trump have cut off all aid if he was in power? How do we know what he would have done?Humanitarian aid is minor now?
Nothing has tangible impact?
Interesting how the people on the ground there seem to disagree with you so completely.
If it is their primary concern, then yes. They should.So therefore no one should be voting between Biden or Trump based on Gaza.
Got it.
Okay so what are the others? Specifically what?On those two specific votes?
No.
Which, if you think those the only two things that have any impact on Gaza, means you shouldn't let Gaza influence your vote between Trump or Biden in any way.
I get it! So you admit there is no difference between Biden and Trump as it regards policy towards Palestine and anyone arguing that there is, is a fool. You've made your point.I get it!
You think there is no reason to use the Gaza situation to choose between Trump and Biden!
Anyone doing so is a fool!
You've made your point.
You can tell yourself that tall tale all you want. But you are not the authority to determine what is an idiotic vote, and what is a smart vote. Voters vote their conscience. You vote your conscience when you vote. By your own definition that would make you an idiotic voter.Idiot voters vote their conscience in a plurality system.
That's one of those politically naive myths told to voters so that they don't exercise power efficiently.
It's one of the worst things you can do since it is more likely to actively hurt your cause than help it.
Tell me how a pro-Palestinian would "win" voting for Biden. Say something specific, not some lengthy mumbo jumbo.What an amazingly self-defeating way to think about elections.
Even that counts as voting their conscience. Some people like you want to get the best result they can. Some people vote based on what is most important to them. Some people choose to not vote at all. All of that counts as "per conscience". No vote is cast, that is not per one's conscience.Oh.
You mean "voting their conscience" to mean "voting to get the best result they can"!
Then you agree with me about voting and we are back to "nothing I do will change this outcome I find important, so I should vote on other criteria".
Again, a strong argument that no one should vote on the Israel/Palestine issue at all.
I dont know where you studied math, but a vote for a 3rd party is +1 vote for the candidate you are voting for. And it is a vote that other contesting candidates are not getting.Because as long as you fail to understand math, I have to point out what is actually going on.
Sorry, it isn't.It is true, sorry.
If you had any idea of how the system worked, you'd realize that very vote is a vote per the voters conscience. Even yours, where you think you are voting to ensure the lesser of the two evils is in power.Yes, you've established you don't understand how the system works.
You don't need to dig your hole deeper.
That is either an outright lie or you have problems with reading comprehension. I said the candidate is expressing political opinions. Where did I say the vote is an expression of your opinions?Wait, you think a vote is "an expression of your opinions"?
Oh dear.
Right and for some people, the Israel Palestine issue will sway the vote more than others and they will end up voting for a 3rd party.Of course the position of candidates sways votes and things sway the voter more than others.
That's the whole point of what we are discussing.
By his definitions people in clearly Red or Blue states shouldn't vote for the opposing party either because they have no chance.So explain it. Is it more genocide of an ongoing genocide? So more people will die, which they already are. Yes we know. Things can always be much worse. But that is like saying the Holocaust could have been much worse. It doesn't make much sense.
That is an outright lie. We are talking about Biden and Trump and the differences between them. Where did I say the US does not have any influence on Israeli policy? My criticism is precisely that, despite having the influence, they don't do anything except enable Israel.
I am extremely interested and I see no tangible impact that works for the Palestinian cause. What I see is unwavering American support for Israel on both sides of the aisle. What do you have to show, that proves I am wrong and you are right? Specifically, what?
No people dont disagree with me. Who is it that is disagreeing with me completely? The moniker "Genocide Joe" exists for a reason. Would Trump have cut off all aid if he was in power? How do we know what he would have done?
If it is their primary concern, then yes. They should.
Okay so what are the others? Specifically what?
I get it! So you admit there is no difference between Biden and Trump as it regards policy towards Palestine and anyone arguing that there is, is a fool. You've made your point.
You can tell yourself that tall tale all you want. But you are not the authority to determine what is an idiotic vote, and what is a smart vote. Voters vote their conscience. You vote your conscience when you vote. By your own definition that would make you an idiotic voter.
Tell me how a pro-Palestinian would "win" voting for Biden. Say something specific, not some lengthy mumbo jumbo.
Even that counts as voting their conscience. Some people like you want to get the best result they can. Some people vote based on what is most important to them. Some people choose to not vote at all. All of that counts as "per conscience". No vote is cast, that is not per one's conscience.
I dont know where you studied math, but a vote for a 3rd party is +1 vote for the candidate you are voting for. And it is a vote that other contesting candidates are not getting.
Sorry, it isn't.
If you had any idea of how the system worked, you'd realize that very vote is a vote per the voters conscience. Even yours, where you think you are voting to ensure the lesser of the two evils is in power.
That is either an outright lie or you have problems with reading comprehension. I said the candidate is expressing political opinions. Where did I say the vote is an expression of your opinions?
Right and for some people, the Israel Palestine issue will sway the vote more than others and they will end up voting for a 3rd party.
This entire post of yours was rambling nonsense, with absolutely ZERO substance. And I mean ZERO. You brought nothing to the table via this discussion! You did 3 things:
a) I see you have a tendency to try to twist people's words, misinterpreting them, and gaslighting them in the process. That does not make for productive debate. Stick to what is being said, not your own misinterpretations.
b) You NEVER give any information in your posts that is SPECIFIC to what is being discussed, that can actually support the points you are trying to make. If you say there is a difference between Trump and Biden, then you need to lay out specific policies, UN resolutions they have supported, and what kind of actual impact it has had on Palestinians. You have nothing to show for in your posts.
c) When you lack information that can bolster your argument, you have resorted to "Oh, you don't know blah blah". If you think someone does not know, present evidence. Just pretending to be wise and knowledgeable, while having nothing to show by way of evidence, for claimed wisdom is just a whole lot of hot air.
You are not even pretending to debate at this point. You are just wasting my time making me respond to lengthy posts with no substance. Disappointing to say the least as I was actually looking for productive debate.![]()
BOB PAPE IS PROF OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT CHICAGO & an old hand at modern assymetrical warfare, insurgencies, counterinsurgencies etc.
Yea, by shooting their own Palestinian kids.BOB PAPE IS PROF OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT CHICAGO & an old hand at modern assymetrical warfare, insurgencies, counterinsurgencies etc.
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You said Israel should show no quarter.I stated BOTH sides have chosen no quarter. Because that is the truth.