Toronto Escorts

Israel at war

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
84,059
19,103
113
  • Like
Reactions: niniveh and Klatuu

niniveh

Well-known member
Jun 8, 2009
1,194
306
83


PARTIAL ISRAELI BUCKET LIST?

Driving the Palestinians out of their homes has been the principle mission of modern zionism from the outset. Bibi is itching to bomb Beirut, next. Military experts are warning that Israel maybe heading into turbulence. The day after Hezballah aired its drone video a reported 68000 people flew out of Ben Gurion; you may assume that these weren't returning tourists. Earlier this winter Israeli stats cited 500000 as the number of citizens making reverse aliya and 30-40k reservist were being called back from abroad. Bibi appears in congress soon to bite JRB, you know where. Who knows the tail may yet succeed in wagging the dog into bombing Iran.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
29,475
53,026
113
Yet you were the one that brought up this language when you claimed it would be 'punishing' Biden to not vote for him just cuz he's aiding a genocide.
Because you have said that the entire point is to punish him.
He supported genocide, therefore he cannot be supported, regardless of what else that means.

I could go all Weber and talk about "ethics of conviction" or "ultimate ends" but I'm pretty sure that's a level of discourse that would be wasted here.

Yet you also don't propose any change to the system, are lukewarm at best to protests to change the system and seem to be against pressuring the party to back the progressives and enact change.
What on earth are you talking about?
The Gaza protests aren't going to change the electoral system and have no aim to do so.
They are entirely irrelevant to that point.

When have I been against pressuring the party to enact change?
That's exactly what I say should be done.

Biden losing over support for genocide will be part of long term change, you are focused entirely on the next 4 years.
Right - "Biden must be punished, and then he and the Dems will learn" is your theory (when you aren't just saying it is a pure principle of "cannot vote if X").

My argument is that you are wrong about the electoral consequences given history. (And because unlike you, I am not focused entirely on the next 4 years.)
I also object - as you know - to the "Everyone must suffer until I get what I want" theory of politics you are espousing here.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
29,298
3,784
113
Mister "I think War Crimes are a positive good" throwing stones in his glass house here.
LOL
What I have stated is it's an inevitably that the two sides will never make peace. So I chose a side. One I am quite comfortable making.

You, along with the Democratic leadership, continue to gaslight the fact you also realize this, fully support arms shipments, and the long slow inevitably of Israel winning with the Palestinians either surrendering in full or no longer there. It will take decades but this is what is going to happen, with the West's help. Its carried over US policy.

Fence sit and all you get is a piece of wood up your ass. The Dems tried to fool their base and have failed.

If you think war crimes are bad why are you supporting a party that is facilitating them? I just see them as an inevitably of war. The notion civilians won't be killed in a war theatre is ridiculous. So I don't play the fake hand wringing game.

It's either no war, or guaranteed "war crimes". That's the truth.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
29,298
3,784
113
Because you have said that the entire point is to punish him.
He supported genocide, therefore he cannot be supported, regardless of what else that means.

I could go all Weber and talk about "ethics of conviction" or "ultimate ends" but I'm pretty sure that's a level of discourse that would be wasted here.



What on earth are you talking about?
The Gaza protests aren't going to change the electoral system and have no aim to do so.
They are entirely irrelevant to that point.

When have I been against pressuring the party to enact change?
That's exactly what I say should be done.



Right - "Biden must be punished, and then he and the Dems will learn" is your theory (when you aren't just saying it is a pure principle of "cannot vote if X").

My argument is that you are wrong about the electoral consequences given history. (And because unlike you, I am not focused entirely on the next 4 years.)
I also object - as you know - to the "Everyone must suffer until I get what I want" theory of politics you are espousing here.
You are either naive or an unrepentant liar. This is entrenched USA policy to let this happen, use attacks by Palestinians to do military operations via the IDF, with the purpose of complete control of Gaza and the West Bank. Just like the Golan Hights.

Biden is the one in power, and he represents the continuation of the policy. So he gets the blame.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kautilya

Kautilya

It Doesn't Matter What You Think!
May 12, 2023
9,523
13,618
113
PARTIAL ISRAELI BUCKET LIST?

Driving the Palestinians out of their homes has been the principle mission of modern zionism from the outset.
Yup. It is why I say that even if Arabs back in the day during Ottoman rule had welcomed the Zionists with open arms, it would likely not have been compatible with the Zionist aims of establishing a JEWISH state. I mean how you gonna establish a JEWISH state in a Muslim land without driving the Muslims out?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Klatuu

Klatuu

Well-known member
Dec 31, 2022
3,955
2,243
113
What I have stated is it's an inevitably that the two sides will never make peace. So I chose a side. One I am quite comfortable making.

You, along with the Democratic leadership, continue to gaslight the fact you also realize this, fully support arms shipments, and the long slow inevitably of Israel winning with the Palestinians either surrendering in full or no longer there. It will take decades but this is what is going to happen, with the West's help. Its carried over US policy.

Fence sit and all you get is a piece of wood up your ass. The Dems tried to fool their base and have failed.

If you think war crimes are bad why are you supporting a party that is facilitating them? I just see them as an inevitably of war. The notion civilians won't be killed in a war theatre is ridiculous. So I don't play the fake hand wringing game.

It's either no war, or guaranteed "war crimes". That's the truth.
Daycare Political Analysis
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
29,475
53,026
113
Yet the possibility of Biden losing over aiding genocide might pressure him to stop before the election.
You have already said that he still couldn't be supported even if that happened.
Also that it would have stopped on its own because you don't expect it to continue.
Also that everything will be exactly the same under Trump so in fact none of this has any effect at all no matter what.

Are you going to pick one of these theories at some point?

This is about the long game, letting rump win will force change in the dems.
Ahh, we are going to stick to this theory, then?
You still think "The pro-Israel side winning the election will teach the opposing party that they should be less pro-Israel"?

Have you... looked at US electoral history?

So to answer this.

1) I don't see any reason to believe your theory of cause and effect should be true.
2) I see even less reason to inflict suffering on people short term in order to get your preferred long-term result.

I do understand that "Look, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs" is a thing some people believe and even embrace.
But doubling down on that on the hope - unsupported by evidence - that it will be worth it in the end isn't really my jam.


This is Biden's last election and watching the AIPAC/Bowman fight is a preview of how that money will look during November.
Interesting.
So how is it going to look, extrapolating from what you are seeing in that fight?

Zionism as a movement must be ended, the leaders taken to court and the occupation ended. That won't happen ever under Biden. He needs to go.
Even if he stops the war, which you think he can stop?
He just needs to go, no matter what?

We're back to "Biden must me made an example of and punished" I see?

Your sole argument is that you think rump might be worse for the genocide.
its a genocide, it really can't get much worse.
It isn't my sole argument.
Are you even reading?

Long term it may change that policy. In 2028 its a different discussion.
No, repeatedly voting third party in tiny amounts isn't going to change policy, even long term.
You would need impressive numbers.

But even then, you have a serious problem in that you have NOT ONCE proposed what people should do instead.
If they stay home, no one knows why and so they don't get counted.
If they vote for RFK - he is more pro-Israel than Biden and possibly even than Trump.
If they vote Stein in massive numbers, maybe you get a signal.
Or maybe voting West.

But if the idea was to make a serious statement, there would be a coordinated effort to rally behind a pro-Palestinian candidate with it being clear that is why they are getting that support.
Outside of one poll in one state that hasn't been repeated, we haven't seen that and their certainly hasn't been any such attempt to create a coordinated message.

Hell, you - in all your "But We ARE CHANGING THE SYSTEM" hasn't even thought to bring it up.

Trump couldn't enact a Muslim ban and won't be able to enact this, even if its still going on in Nov.
He's senile and more worried about pardoning himself, a nice piece of chocolate cake and cheating at golf.
Ahh, we are back to "It's all right because nothing bad will happen because Trump is incompetent".

While I think this is ludicrous wishcasting, at least it is better than "No, everyone SHOULD suffer if they don't agree with me".
This is just "If I wish and pray really hard, I won't have to feel bad about what I helped cause happen! (even if I think it is ok because my hands would be clean because I don't understand voting systems)"


Are you under the impression these are Federal police and that the US Government is deporting them?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
84,059
19,103
113
Because you have said that the entire point is to punish him.
He supported genocide, therefore he cannot be supported, regardless of what else that means.

I could go all Weber and talk about "ethics of conviction" or "ultimate ends" but I'm pretty sure that's a level of discourse that would be wasted here.
Check the threads, I said he shouldn't be supported because of the genocide and that would pressure the dems to eventually change. You interpreted that to mean I wanted to 'punish' Biden. That's been your term and frame of reference all along, which is based on an argument that the vote is already his and its just a 'punishment' to not give it to him. I argue vote third party, or wasted ballet.


What on earth are you talking about?
The Gaza protests aren't going to change the electoral system and have no aim to do so.
They are entirely irrelevant to that point.

When have I been against pressuring the party to enact change?
That's exactly what I say should be done.
I didn't say it would change the electoral system, I only argued that your sole frame of reference is that its a wasted vote, not electoral change and not change to either party.

Right - "Biden must be punished, and then he and the Dems will learn" is your theory (when you aren't just saying it is a pure principle of "cannot vote if X").

My argument is that you are wrong about the electoral consequences given history. (And because unlike you, I am not focused entirely on the next 4 years.)
I also object - as you know - to the "Everyone must suffer until I get what I want" theory of politics you are espousing here.
Again, your language, not mine. Votes are not owned by a party and its not a punishment to not give it to them. They must earn that vote.
Biden chose genocide and is losing support, where that vote goes is up to the voter, whether or not you think its wasted.

The idea of democracy is that you get to choose, even if you disagree. If you have an issue, take it up with the dems themselves for allowing Biden to destroy his reelection and put rump back in power. It is their choice.

Voters will make their own choices in response.

You argue its naive to waste a vote, I argue its more naive to put someone in power who is committing genocide.
Never Again.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
29,475
53,026
113

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
84,059
19,103
113
You have already said that he still couldn't be supported even if that happened.
Also that it would have stopped on its own because you don't expect it to continue.
Also that everything will be exactly the same under Trump so in fact none of this has any effect at all no matter what.
No, no and no.
I wouldn't support Biden but perhaps others will go back.
It won't stop on its own, Netanyahu won't stop because he is done when its over and Biden refuses to stop him.
Things will be different under rump, but Biden is aiding genocide and rump 'might' aid genocide. So you work to stop the one committing genocide now not the one who might or might not in 6 months.


Ahh, we are going to stick to this theory, then?
You still think "The pro-Israel side winning the election will teach the opposing party that they should be less pro-Israel"?

Have you... looked at US electoral history?

So to answer this.

1) I don't see any reason to believe your theory of cause and effect should be true.
2) I see even less reason to inflict suffering on people short term in order to get your preferred long-term result.

I do understand that "Look, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs" is a thing some people believe and even embrace.
But doubling down on that on the hope - unsupported by evidence - that it will be worth it in the end isn't really my jam.
Have you looked at US history?
Where is the NRA right now? They used to be a major lobbyist.
AIPAC is now even more hated and even more discussed. Ending AIPAC ends support for Israel, it ends zionist billionaires bribing politicians to support genocide.


Interesting.
So how is it going to look, extrapolating from what you are seeing in that fight?
Whether or not Bowman wins, AIPAC loses as they become the target of everyone not taking their money.

Even if he stops the war, which you think he can stop?
He just needs to go, no matter what?

We're back to "Biden must me made an example of and punished" I see?
Biden should end his life in court at the ICC along with Netanyahu.
Yes, those who aid and commit genocide should be punished and made examples.
I'm sorry you don't think that.

It isn't my sole argument.
Are you even reading?
Its your sole rationale, dressed up with multiple methods to justify it.

No, repeatedly voting third party in tiny amounts isn't going to change policy, even long term.
You would need impressive numbers.

But even then, you have a serious problem in that you have NOT ONCE proposed what people should do instead.
If they stay home, no one knows why and so they don't get counted.
If they vote for RFK - he is more pro-Israel than Biden and possibly even than Trump.
If they vote Stein in massive numbers, maybe you get a signal.
Or maybe voting West.

But if the idea was to make a serious statement, there would be a coordinated effort to rally behind a pro-Palestinian candidate with it being clear that is why they are getting that support.
Outside of one poll in one state that hasn't been repeated, we haven't seen that and their certainly hasn't been any such attempt to create a coordinated message.

Hell, you - in all your "But We ARE CHANGING THE SYSTEM" hasn't even thought to bring it up.
Support for the Vietnam war tanked after Nixon and Humphrey. That changed the system somewhat as did the Pentagon papers.
Support for Israel has tanked and its yet to hit the government yet.

Ahh, we are back to "It's all right because nothing bad will happen because Trump is incompetent".

While I think this is ludicrous wishcasting, at least it is better than "No, everyone SHOULD suffer if they don't agree with me".
This is just "If I wish and pray really hard, I won't have to feel bad about what I helped cause happen! (even if I think it is ok because my hands would be clean because I don't understand voting systems)"
And you're back to this MAGA like claim that they other party will destroy the US and its perfect democracy.
Rump is a moron who is incredibly ineffective as a politician, most of his team is disbarred or in prison and he's now much more senile.
I'm sure there are grifters and extremists waiting for the chance to work with him but even Mitch is gone. Mitch was the brains of the SCOTUS changes, there is nobody in the GOP smart and wiley enough to pull that off now. MTG? Gaetz?


Are you under the impression these are Federal police and that the US Government is deporting them?
Stupid comment, as straw man arguments that's quite weak.
The dems lose the power of saying they are for equal rights, free speech and control of the police state through the attacks on Palestine protesters.
They look no different than the GOP here.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
84,059
19,103
113
No one should want an escalation of the conflict, but it is pretty clear that there are people who really do.
Person.
The correct term here is person.

Netanyahu is the one driving for a war with Lebanon, both to force the US to up their support and to give a bone to the hard liners in government and to make it that much harder to kick him out of office.

The question becomes 'does Biden really have a limit to what he can support'.
Every single red line he's drawn Netanyahu has publicly mocked him by crossing.

Why do you think Biden is still backing him?
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
29,475
53,026
113
What I have stated is it's an inevitably that the two sides will never make peace. So I chose a side. One I am quite comfortable making.
You also called on Israel to commit war crimes.

I just see them as an inevitably of war.
Given your authoritarian tendencies, this doesn't surprise me in the least.

The notion civilians won't be killed in a war theatre is ridiculous. So I don't play the fake hand wringing game.
Ahh, the classic "people get hurt in war, therefore war crimes are bullshit" defense.

It's either no war, or guaranteed "war crimes". That's the truth.
Scare quotes around "war crimes" as well?

Well, at least you are true to your convictions about this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Klatuu
Toronto Escorts