Toronto Girlfriends

The Ontario Science Centre is closing. What does that mean for the community?

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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Mmmmm, the new museum is supposed to be 275 thousand square feet, not 200,000. So you're fibbing a bit with your numbers.

Do you have any idea how big that is? An acre of land is 43,560 ft^2. 275,000 ft2 /43,560 = 6.3 acres. That's fucking huge.

Royal Ontario Museum = 214,000 ft2

Metro Toronto Convention Centre = 442,000 ft2

BMO Field = 160,000 ft2

How much do you figure you need?

Build housing on the land currently occupied by the big box and build a new state of the art science centre down at Ontario Place. I don't see this as anything but a logical win win situation, sorry.
The Engineers report has condemned the building.

Unless some of the loud mouth anti-Ford pitchfork crowd who oppose Ford at every turn no matter what want to submit an affidavit and a surety assuming all responsibility for the condition of the building and all financial liability for those who are injured or killed should it collapse, then shut the fuck up. (And we all know that not one of them will do that.)

The building has been condemned and closed. It's going to be torn down and hopefully soon because frankly I'm sick of listening to all the bullshit from the anti-Ford crowd who know fuck all about anything other than they hate Ford. And when you ask them why they hate Ford, they always parrot away about "cuts". Except Ford hasn't cut shit and in fact his government spends more than any previous government in Ontario and when you prove thar to them, they just accuse you of lying. And this province is drowning in debt, most of which was brought to you by the previous liberal regimes. (And I'm disappointed that the Ford PCs haven't had the guts to cut spending by a measley 9 billion dollars.)

The PCs have a majority in the legislature. Why they have waited this long makes no fucking sense to me whatsoever. Take a godamn vote and tear the fucking thing down. It's a piece of shit building anyway. Just a big ugly out dated box and now condemned building.

Tear the fucking thing down already.
Yet, the frickin Fraud is spending:

1) $1billion for the restoration of the decrepit, decaying and should be condemned/torn down Pink Palace at Queen's Park.

2) $1.54billion for the reconstruction of the Macdonald Block of provincial buildings.


Yet, the frickin Fraud who:

1) Attempted to stealthily demolish the Dominion Foundry buildings in a secret closed-door deal with his favorite puppet master, The De Gasperis family, until the citizens united stopped them. The same family behind the bulk of the Greenbelt land scam scandal.

2) 4 years later, the De Gasperis family under their Aspen Ridge Homes brand, squats on the land and has not put forward any plans for housing nor undertaken any form of community engagement.


Yet, the frickin Fraud:

1) Who orchestrated the above and the OSC scam to stealthily unencumber more public lands for his developer puppet masters at the SE corner of Eglinton and Don Mills.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,052
3,932
113
Sorry James t, I do not fib. I may make a mistake but no fibbing. From their business case study:

snip

Option 2 results in a hybrid structure which includes a (approximately
200,000 square feet) plus the repurposing of the existing pod and Cinesphere structures at Ontario Place
(approximately 77,700 square feet). All new exhibits and program are contemplated."

So when I said 'about' 1/3 the size I was referring 200/568 about 1/3 for easy discussion. The 200 is a "new purpose-built Science Pavilion". The 77k is repurposing other, maybe older buildings. I am making no statement that more or less is needed. I am simply wondering how one puts 568,000 sq ft into a 200,000 sq ft new OSC ................. or even adding on the 77,000 sq ft.

Under Option 2 there has to be "consolidation or rationalization of space / programming". What happens if there is a need for expansion? I personally believe that we should leave it where it is. If they are closing now because there is actually a danger of collapse and not because the engineer's report concludes what dofo wants, then just tear it down (which they will do) and build 200 or 277,000 sq ft on the same site. Room to expand, easier to get to rather than driving downtown and the reports conclusions would all still be the same. A win win for the people/tourists and kids.
Blah blah blah, what I read online says 275,000 square feet to 300,000 square feet.

Besides, no way to know until such time at least a preliminary design is done.

Even at 200,000 ft2, it's the same size as the ROM.
 
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james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,052
3,932
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The report said some repairs had to be done by Oct, DoFo shut it down today.
DoFo had and ignored multiple reports that the Science Centre needed repairs, even now it could be fixed with $4 million a year in repairs which is far cheaper than rebuilding a heritage site serving a deprived neighbourhood.

This is totally the conservative playbook, cut all maintenance funding then act surprised when it falls apart.
All so he can tear it down and give the land near a new subway station to his developer donors.
If anyone cut maintenance, it was the previous liberal regime.

Never the less, 70 percent of the roofing structure is made of RAAC panels. As soon as I heard that, I was like, "oooh, it's finished". That stuff was used because it was cheap at the time they built the building. It's basically crap and only has a life-span of 30 years. We The former Science Centre was built in 1969. That means that that RAAC concrete is 55 years old. We haven't used RAAC in Canada that I'm aware of since the 1980's. But you would know differently because you have a masters degree in Structural Engineering right? Right?

But hey, you don't have to believe me. Buy maybe you could at least do some reading on the issue. From your buddies at the BBC.

https://bbc.com/news/education-66669239

So better put your pitch fork in the closet because it's going to be of zero use on this one. The building is condemed, it's going to be torn down. Tough shit.

It's 90 acres of under utilized land that can be used to build much needed housing. Full stop.

They can build a new Science Centre at Ontario place which won't feature RAAC and will be the state of the art. That will turn a 15 year old tumble weed farm into something useful. I know, I know, think of the tumble weed right. Doug Ford is elminating funding for tumbleweed.
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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Bullshit. Headlong rush to close the OSC in order to free up the property faster, quicker, more corruptly for Fraud's puppet masters, De Gasperis and other developers.

84% of the roof is at low-risk which the engineering outfit declares need only be monitored and re-assessed at 3-year intervals.
Less than 10% of the roof is at medium risk, which the engineers state need to monitored and reassessed annually.
6% at high risk.
1 panel is at critical risk.

WTF. Look out below!


Quoted below from the report at the bottom of this article: Ontario Science Centre to close immediately: province | CBC News

"The overall RAAC panel risk level classifications based on Rimkus’ investigation can be summarized as follows:

• One panel in total was placed in the critical risk (blue) category.
• Approximately 6% of the roof panels within the combined RAAC panel roof areas (approximately 2,000 sq ft) were placed into the high risk (amber) category.
• Approximately 9% of the reviewed RAAC panels were placed into the medium risk level (yellow) category.
• The remaining RAAC panels, around 84%, were placed in the low risk level (green) category.


Critical Risk (Blue) Panels • Immediate installation of shoring (reinforcement) for all critical risk panels. These panel locations were identified immediately to the client and the work was previously completed prior to report preparation. • Shoring to remain in place until panel remediation has been completed.

High Risk (Amber) Panels • Replacement or reinforcement prior to October 31, 2024. (recommended timeframe) • Implementation of a Rain/Snow load monitoring plan, refer to the Rimkus document titled ‘Snow Loading & Rainwater Management Plan’ for further details until the remediation has been completed. • Where remediation cannot be completed within the recommended time frame, then one of the following supplemental risk mitigation options is recommended and should be implemented in conjunction with the snow/load monitoring program.

Option 1: Restricted access or full closure to prevent any persons from walking in areas where high risk panels are present.
Option 2: Installation of temporary shoring (reinforcement) to the underside of RAAC panels.
Option 3: If shoring is not possible, installation of horizontal hoarding near the underside of hard ceiling levels, or other building interferences (sprinkler mains/process piping etc.) which is also considered reinforcement. • The above three recommended options are listed order of preference, with option 1 completing eliminating the risk to public or staff.

Medium Risk (Yellow) Panels • Monitor and re-assess annually.

Low Risk (Green) Panels • Monitor and re-assess at three-year intervals."
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
10,922
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Spending $2.54billion for restoration of his Pink Palace and reconstruction of his Macdonald Block while shutting down the OSC because less than 7% of the roof needs repair before Oct 31st?

Nah, nah, nah. Does not make fuckin sense at all.

What makes sense to him and his ilk is this:

Looking for any lame excuse to do whatever his puppet masters tell him to do and the faster and quicker the better before they are caught yet again.
 

mrk_2

Member
Apr 12, 2004
48
62
18
Blah blah blah, what I read online says 275,000 square feet to 300,000 square feet.

Besides, no way to know until such time at least a preliminary design is done.

Even at 200,000 ft2, it's the same size as the ROM.
Maybe rather than read someone elses opinion on line, why not just read the actual report or at least the exec summary. So what if the ROM is 200k sq ft! There is no place for any addition if needed downtown. You seem to like accusing people of 'fibbing' and when politely corrected, your response is "Blah blah blah".

To be honest, I expected better from the Capt of the Enterprise who has spent the last 23 years here on Terb ............. tsk tsk
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,052
3,932
113
Bullshit. Headlong rush to close the OSC in order to free up the property faster, quicker, more corruptly for Fraud's puppet masters, De Gasperis and other developers.

84% of the roof is at low-risk which the engineering outfit declares need only be monitored and re-assessed at 3-year intervals.
Less than 10% of the roof is at medium risk, which the engineers state need to monitored and reassessed annually.
6% at high risk.
1 panel is at critical risk.

WTF. Look out below!


Quoted below from the report at the bottom of this article: Ontario Science Centre to close immediately: province | CBC News

"The overall RAAC panel risk level classifications based on Rimkus’ investigation can be summarized as follows:

• One panel in total was placed in the critical risk (blue) category.
• Approximately 6% of the roof panels within the combined RAAC panel roof areas (approximately 2,000 sq ft) were placed into the high risk (amber) category.
• Approximately 9% of the reviewed RAAC panels were placed into the medium risk level (yellow) category.
• The remaining RAAC panels, around 84%, were placed in the low risk level (green) category.


Critical Risk (Blue) Panels • Immediate installation of shoring (reinforcement) for all critical risk panels. These panel locations were identified immediately to the client and the work was previously completed prior to report preparation. • Shoring to remain in place until panel remediation has been completed.

High Risk (Amber) Panels • Replacement or reinforcement prior to October 31, 2024. (recommended timeframe) • Implementation of a Rain/Snow load monitoring plan, refer to the Rimkus document titled ‘Snow Loading & Rainwater Management Plan’ for further details until the remediation has been completed. • Where remediation cannot be completed within the recommended time frame, then one of the following supplemental risk mitigation options is recommended and should be implemented in conjunction with the snow/load monitoring program.

Option 1: Restricted access or full closure to prevent any persons from walking in areas where high risk panels are present.
Option 2: Installation of temporary shoring (reinforcement) to the underside of RAAC panels.
Option 3: If shoring is not possible, installation of horizontal hoarding near the underside of hard ceiling levels, or other building interferences (sprinkler mains/process piping etc.) which is also considered reinforcement. • The above three recommended options are listed order of preference, with option 1 completing eliminating the risk to public or staff.

Medium Risk (Yellow) Panels • Monitor and re-assess annually.

Low Risk (Green) Panels • Monitor and re-assess at three-year intervals."
Usually, I ignore you because your posts are so scattered.

But this time, I'll bite.

The problem wiht RAAC is that the reinforcing steel which is embedded in the concrete will corrode due to the large percentage of the voids which allow moisture to infiltrate the concrete over time and the concrete becomes weak and brittle withe repeated freeze thaw cycles. (Which we have in abundance in Toronto.) It is impossible to see either of these deficiencies. Until there is a failure. RAAC was a cheap system that is no longer used in 30 years in Canada due to its inherrent dangers. It had a 30 year life span when it was installed in 1969 and we are well past that.

Your buddies at the NDP are free to put up a bond and accept all liability and responsibilities for the roof structure. But we all know the won't because they are full of shit. The building is going to be torn down and probably very quickly. Get your head around that fact.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
24,052
3,932
113
Maybe rather than read someone elses opinion on line, why not just read the actual report or at least the exec summary. So what if the ROM is 200k sq ft! There is no place for any addition if needed downtown. You seem to like accusing people of 'fibbing' and when politely corrected, your response is "Blah blah blah".

To be honest, I expected better from the Capt of the Enterprise who has spent the last 23 years here on Terb ............. tsk tsk
4.3.1 New Science Centre Would Have 18% Less Indoor Exhibit Space, Outdoor Space Remains Unplanned We compared the proposed new centre’s interior (building) space to the existing space at the Ontario Science Centre and determined that the proposed centre would be approximately half (49%) the existing centre’s size, in square footage. Specifically, at 770 Don Mills Road, the buildings provide a total of 568,000 square feet. The proposed space within the Ontario Place location—comprising the mainland building, pods, bridges and the Cinesphere—is 275,700 square feet. The proposed centre contains 110,000 square feet of indoor exhibit space, which is 18% less when compared to 134,000 square feet (which includes the rainforest, planetarium and travelling exhibit space) at the existing Don Mills site. Infrastructure Ontario’s request for proposal (RFP) indicated that the new site would not have certain core exhibits that are part of the current centre, such as the indoor immersive rainforest or a planetarium.

Link to the Auditor General's report.

If you feel that is too small, then I suggest you contact your MPP and write the Premier of Ontario and make your postion known.

PS, I don't hear anyone complaining about the ROM being too small.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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4.3.1 New Science Centre Would Have 18% Less Indoor Exhibit Space, Outdoor Space Remains Unplanned We compared the proposed new centre’s interior (building) space to the existing space at the Ontario Science Centre and determined that the proposed centre would be approximately half (49%) the existing centre’s size, in square footage. Specifically, at 770 Don Mills Road, the buildings provide a total of 568,000 square feet. The proposed space within the Ontario Place location—comprising the mainland building, pods, bridges and the Cinesphere—is 275,700 square feet. The proposed centre contains 110,000 square feet of indoor exhibit space, which is 18% less when compared to 134,000 square feet (which includes the rainforest, planetarium and travelling exhibit space) at the existing Don Mills site. Infrastructure Ontario’s request for proposal (RFP) indicated that the new site would not have certain core exhibits that are part of the current centre, such as the indoor immersive rainforest or a planetarium.

Link to the Auditor General's report.

If you feel that is too small, then I suggest you contact your MPP and write the Premier of Ontario and make your postion known.

PS, I don't hear anyone complaining about the ROM being too small.
$4 million a year in maintenance to bring it up to standards.
That's cheaper than a rebuild by far.
 

Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
10,922
3,493
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Usually, I ignore you because your posts are so scattered.

But this time, I'll bite.

The problem wiht RAAC is that the reinforcing steel which is embedded in the concrete will corrode due to the large percentage of the voids which allow moisture to infiltrate the concrete over time and the concrete becomes weak and brittle withe repeated freeze thaw cycles. (Which we have in abundance in Toronto.) It is impossible to see either of these deficiencies. Until there is a failure. RAAC was a cheap system that is no longer used in 30 years in Canada due to its inherrent dangers. It had a 30 year life span when it was installed in 1969 and we are well past that.

Your buddies at the NDP are free to put up a bond and accept all liability and responsibilities for the roof structure. But we all know the won't because they are full of shit. The building is going to be torn down and probably very quickly. Get your head around that fact.
Scattered my ass.

Get your head around the fact that much more than the engineering report > which stated that just one RAAC panel that has been deemed to be at critical risk and that just 6% of the RAAC panels are at high risk all of which could be remediated < factored into this decision to close the OSC.

The engineering report states the remediation required for these sections of the roofing panels and for the integrity of the remaining roofing panels.

Fact is, the Frickin Fraud is fine with managing the risk associated with the RAAC panels in 360 of Ontario's schools, BUT refuses, absolutely refuses and has absolutely refused since 2018 to manage the risk with RAAC panels at
the OSC.

Risking the lives of thousands of school kids and toddlers at risk in Ontario's schools is a risk the Frickin Fraud is willing to take BUT shuttering the OSC because 6% of the roof is at risk, which can be remediated as is happening in schools, is fine and dandy .

The question is why?

The answer lies with who will benefit from the removal of OSC from the prime property it currently occupies.

You cannot see beyond the "my feet are stuck in the concrete" of a time that has passed by you and others like behind.

Oh and btw, your choices of what is architecturally, historically, societally and culturally significant and worth protecting are abysmal at best.



Hundreds of Ontario schools with the same aging concrete as the Ontario Science Centre are being monitored
The Ministry of Education asked last fall that all buildings that have RACC be inspected.
June 24, 2024

About 360 of Ontario’s 4,500 schools contain some aerated concrete, and boards are monitoring their condition after the Ministry of Education last fall asked that they all be inspected.

In a memo sent to directors of education last November, the ministry noted that in the United Kingdom, more than 100 schools were shut down just prior to the start of start of classes in 2023 after a school’s flat roof collapsed because of deteriorated RAAC, or reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete.

Such concrete was used in floors, walls, eaves and roofs in the 1960s, 70s and 80s and is said to have about a 30-year lifespan, and the ministry said that given pre-1980 aerated concrete parts are “now past their expected service life ... it is recommended that consideration is given to their replacement.” On Friday, the province announced the immediate closure of the Ontario Science Centre over concerns its roof panels — constructed from RAAC — were at risk of failure.

The ministry said that while “no problems have been identified in Ontario schools, through discussions with boards and data available, it appears that the material (brand name Siporex) is present in some older schools in the province. The ministry understands that a number of school boards already have management strategies in place.”

The memo goes on to say that “out of an abundance of caution and to ensure the continued provision of safe and healthy learning environments for students and staff, the ministry is requesting all school boards implement an investigation, assessment, and management strategy for RAAC within their buildings. This may involve the use of specialized professional engineering services” and any reports were to be submitted as of last January.

Patrick Daly, former president of the Ontario Catholic School Trustees’ Association and chair of the Hamilton-Wentworth Catholic board, said about eight of 65 schools there are being closely watched.

“We hired an engineering firm to inspect those schools ... and as a result the consultant recommended to our board that we re-inspect all of those schools every two years. They didn’t find any concerns, but strongly encouraged us to continue to inspect them.”

Daly wasn’t aware of any immediate repairs needed in any Catholic schools across the province, and the Ontario Public School Boards’ Association said the situation for its members was the same.


“It was in the fall when we were given a heads up about this” and where aerated concrete was found, “school boards have been monitoring it for some time,” said president Cathy Abraham.

“We know that there are schools built during that time period,” she added. “And if they found something, action would have been taken, because keeping our schools as safe facilities” is the priority.

A spokesperson for Education Minister Todd Smith said “the ministry proactively required school boards to assess the presence of reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete throughout schools. About eight per cent of Ontario schools surveyed have RAAC identified.”

The spokesperson said “several school boards have been actively managing RAAC through regular inspections, reinforcement of RAAC planks, and roof replacements. The government has invested $1.4 billion annually to support boards with the renewal and repair of schools, including those with RAAC identified and will continue to work with the boards to support remediation plans.”

Civil engineering Prof. Lamya Amleh of Toronto Metropolitan University said the issue with RAAC is that it is a “lightweight porous building material often used for construction due to its good insulation properties, structure fire protection and ease of use,” but its drawbacks include that it is “more porous than traditional concrete, which means it can absorb water more easily” which can lead to “cracks or even structural failures.

“Proper sealing, regular maintenance, and avoiding unreinforced modifications are crucial to ensure RAAC remains in good condition. Neglecting these can accelerate deterioration and increase the risk of structural failure,” said Amleh.

Parents, she added, “should not panic but should be informed” and ask about regular inspections and maintenance.

Meanwhile, Toronto Community Housing Corp., the city’s subsidized housing agency, says it isn’t aware of RAAC materials being used in any of its buildings “at this time.” However, spokesperson Kimberly Moser cautioned that “most” of the agency’s older housing complexes were inherited by TCHC after being built by the province or city, and directed further inquiries to the two governments.

A spokesperson for Unity Health — which includes St. Michael’s Hospital, Providence Healthcare and St. Joseph’s Health Centre — said their building records also do not indicate any use of RAAC construction material across those three hospitals.
 
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Skoob

Well-known member
Jun 1, 2022
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Saw this on Elon's X.
Yellow is the Science Centre
Red is property owned by Druggie Ford's developer buddy.
View attachment 337607
Red used to be owned by IBM/Celestica and was sold and was developed for housing as it's perfectly situated on the Eglinton LRT line and will also be on the Ontario line. The land was re-zoned from commercial to residential. There is also a small piece of land that's included and it's not shown in your diagram and it's on the south side of Eglinton.
Approx 5000 desperately needed units are in the process of being built. They can build almost twice as many on the OSC land.
In other words, utilizing land within the city to build housing in an effort to deal with the housing crisis.

The Celestica property was for sale and many potential buyers were in line. Condrain won the deal and purchased it for residential development.
There are not many developers in Canada that take on such large project and investments.
 
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SchlongConery

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I think it is despicable the way Ford is going about it. Certainly there is some secret agenda. Ontario Place makes NO sense for either a spa or Ontario Science Center.

Nor does its current location make good use of the land.

Sell the OSC lands by public auction to the highest bidder specifically for high density housing on that expensive transit line. In fact, reduce the requirements for car parking so as to not create too much new traffic and allow for more housing units. On-site school like they have done near Eglinton and Yonge. Grocery store etc.

Use some of the proceeds of that sale to build a more current, efficient "Science Center" near or as part of York University. That area has convenient transit access for the GTA and for driving in from throughout the province from the 400 series of highways.

The Gardiner and Lakeshore are already at capacity and make for a stupid school bus trip from any school in Ontario. And there is NO public transit to the property. Nor will a science center and spa support even an hourly TTC bus. Could NOT be a worse location.

As for the spa with an underground parking garage to China at Ontario Place?!? That the province is going to pay a billion dollars to get ready for private, overseas 'investors'? You can't make this shit up!

Leave the Ontario Place land fallow until someone dreams up something appropriate for that special property and site.

The only reason to do these things Ford is forcing is founded in corruption. Or incompetent idiocy.
 
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Skoob

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Sell the OSC lands by public auction to the highest bidder specifically for high density housing on that expensive transit line. In fact, reduce the requirements for car parking so as to not create too much new traffic and allow for more housing units. On-site school like they have done near Eglinton and Yonge. Grocery store etc.

Use some of the proceeds of that sale to build a more current, efficient "Science Center" near or as part of York University. That area has convenient transit access for the GTA and for driving in from throughout the province from the 400 series of highways.

The Gardiner and Lakeshore are already at capacity and make for a stupid school bus trip from any school in Ontario. And there is NO public transit to the property. Nor will a science center and spa support even an hourly TTC bus. Could NOT be a worse location.

As for the spa with an underground parking garage to China at Ontario Place?!? That the province is going to pay a billion dollars to get ready for private, overseas 'investors'? You can't make this shit up!

Leave the Ontario Place land fallow until someone dreams up something appropriate for that special property and site.

The only reason to do these things Ford is forcing is founded in corruption. Or incompetent idiocy.
They will sell the development of the OSC land to build housing.
Unless you will take the 407, which school buses typically do not, there is no highway exit anywhere near York University compared to Ontario place.

Ontario Place has essentially been left fallow for decades. A multi-use, year-round destination will be very good and it's about time something gets done.

It's not corruption...it's progress.
Or do nothing as the previous administration did and we still have a housing crisis.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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To answer the OP's question, what it means is more condos on pretty ravine land that was previously considered protected. Absolutely no coincidence that Ford's buddies are getting first shot at land at the intersection of two subway lines.
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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They will sell the development of the OSC land to build housing.

Ontario Place has essentially been left fallow for decades. A multi-use, year-round destination will be very good and it's about time something gets done.

It's not corruption...it's progress.
Or do nothing as the previous administration did and we still have a housing crisis.
Who is the "they" that you state will sell the development of the OSC land to build housing?

Who owns the property/land?

Which level of gov't has a lease, NOT the property/land, to operate/build nothing BUT Science Center related activities and uses on the property/land of another level of gov't and a governmental agency till 2064?

Oops.
 
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Skoob

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Who is the "they" that you state will sell the development of the OSC land to build housing?

Who owns the property/land?

Which level of gov't has a lease, NOT the property/land, to operate/build nothing BUT Science Center related activities and uses on the property/land of another level of gov't and a governmental agency till 2064?

Oops.
The city owns the land. The province has a 99 year lease on the structure.

Move the science centre elsewhere, there's empty land for the city to re-zone into residential land to build housing on.
You know...to fix that little thing called "the housing crisis".

Or

Toronto can stare at a vacant lot and stop complaining about the housing crisis and blaming the province for their own incompetence.

Fair?
 
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Skoob

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Oops?
Ever hear of the Crosstown development across the street? That's what I was referencing.
Try and keep up.

When they knock down the OSC and build housing on it, it will be a great location surrounded by nature and access to public transit.
The only thing standing in the way of progress will be the city council f*cking things up and they will only have themselves to blame while choking on Chow's failure.
 
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