The Discussion That Anti-Zionism is Not Anti-Semitism

[Valcazar]

So, if you were American and making a choice in Nov. who would you vote for trump or Biden? I am not anticipating anything close to a direct answer. He won't choose.

Frank's view of voting is that it is an expression of personal morality.


It's a theory that if everyone just voted for who they thought was best, things would get better.

This is, of course, a completely wrong theory of how the system works.
Voting like that in a first past the post system produces results that the people voting don't want.
This has been known for decades but people don't like that this is true, so insist that it isn't.

I'd vote for the only Jewish candidate.
Jill Stein.

See?

 

[Frankfooter]

Frank's view of voting is that it is an expression of personal morality.
View attachment 332168

It's a theory that if everyone just voted for who they thought was best, things would get better.

This is, of course, a completely wrong theory of how the system works.
Voting like that in a first past the post system produces result that the people voting don't want.
This has been known for decades but people don't like that this is true, so insist that it isn't.



See?

And your view is that its pragmatic to vote for either Hitler A or Hitler B, if those are only two who can win.
Voting for genocide isn't very noble or democratic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1799465501053366373

 

[Valcazar]

And your view is that its pragmatic to vote for either Hitler A or Hitler B, if those are only two who can win.
Voting for genocide isn't very noble or democratic.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1799465501053366373

It is entirely democratic.
Thinking voting is supposed to be "noble" is at the root of your problem, here.

Interesting that you've just openly embraced "Liberals are actually fascists" now, though.

It is sad that this illusion you have about the world is going to drive you over the edge into something horrible, but I assume it is inevitable at this point.

 

[Frankfooter]

It is entirely democratic.
Thinking voting is supposed to be "noble" is at the root of your problem, here.

Interesting that you've just openly embraced "Liberals are actually fascists" now, though.

It is sad that this illusion you have about the world is going to drive you over the edge into something horrible, but I assume it is inevitable at this point.

Lead you into something horrible?
Its already here, with the party you back supporting genocide against another guy probably supporting genocide.

Voting for Jill Stein is also entirely democratic.
You don't want people to vote for independents only because of your own worry about rump winning.
You don't want people to vote for the person that reflects their views closest, that's not democratic.

 

[Valcazar]

Voting for Jill Stein is also entirely democratic.

I never said otherwise.
I said it was stupid and counter productive.

You don't want people to vote for independents only because of your own worry about rump winning.
You don't want people to vote for the person that reflects their views closest, that's not democratic.

That's a complaint you have with the voting system.
I want you to understand the system.
I want all people to understand it.

If you understand it and still choose to vote a certain way, very good.
But you don't understand it, as you've proven again and again.

Luckily, you don't vote in US elections.
How much damage you do to Canadian elections will depend a lot on where you live.

 

[Frankfooter]

I want you to understand the system.
I want all people to understand it.

If you understand it and still choose to vote a certain way, very good.
But you don't understand it, as you've proven again and again.

Luckily, you don't vote in US elections.
How much damage you do to Canadian elections will depend a lot on where you live.

By 'understand' you mean 'hold the same views as valcazar'.
Do think that people who won't vote for Genocide Joe don't understand that rump will likely win?

What you don't agree with is that choice, that is what you say means they 'don't understand the system'.
Its back to your MAGA like claim that the opponent will destroy the US, despite failing to do so during the 4 years in office when he was not senile and people didn't realize that doing his bidding will put you behind bars eventually.

You are not after 'understanding' you just want people to make the choice you back.

 

[Valcazar]

By 'understand' you mean 'hold the same views as valcazar'.
Do think that people who won't vote for Genocide Joe don't understand that rump will likely win?

Some don't!
You've said repeatedly that not voting for Biden and therefore helping Trump win can't be held against people even though they know they are helping Trump win.

What you don't agree with is that choice, that is what you say means they 'don't understand the system'.

I don't agree with you lying about what that choice means and does.
Again - if you embrace that your strategy is to make Trump win and you think that is the better result, then fine.
You understand the system, we just wildly disagree with what the better choice is.

That isn't what is going on here, though, as you've demonstrated repeatedly.

Its back to your MAGA like claim that the opponent will destroy the US, despite failing to do so during the 4 years in office when he was not senile and people didn't realize that doing his bidding will put you behind bars eventually.

You are not after 'understanding' you just want people to make the choice you back.

Not at all!
If you are now openly admitting, "Look. My vote is to get Trump in power because I think what he will do is less bad than what Biden has done" then other than me thinking you are wrong in your calculation, I have no argument.

You are choosing between Biden and Trump. (I mean, YOU aren't. You don't vote.)
One of those two results is the one you think will be better for the country, the world, the Palestinians, what have you.

That's all I am saying. There is no way you are NOT making that choice.
Encouraging people to not vote for Biden is saying you think Trump being in charge is the better result.

You seem to keep wanting to avoid that simple fact.

 

[Frankfooter]

Some don't!
You've said repeatedly that not voting for Biden and therefore helping Trump win can't be held against people even though they know they are helping Trump win.

On the contrary, you've been arguing that it doesn't matter that people have moral lines they won't cross, like torturing babies or voting to aid genocide, that those lines must be thrown away or else you would be 'punishing' a candidate just for aiding genocide. That supporting what you say is a very flawed system is more important than having morals.

I don't agree with you lying about what that choice means and does.
Again - if you embrace that your strategy is to make Trump win and you think that is the better result, then fine.
You understand the system, we just wildly disagree with what the better choice is.

That isn't what is going on here, though, as you've demonstrated repeatedly.

That's unlike you to accuse people of lying, you know you have to prove intent and knowledge that the claim is wrong for that charge.
My strategy is that I wouldn't vote for a convicted felon, rapist, conman who attempted a coup just as much as I wouldn't vote for someone actively aiding a genocide. That personal moral choice is more important to me than having someone try to blame me for letting rump gain office when that blame lies with Biden and the dems and their support of genocide.

Not at all!
If you are now openly admitting, "Look. My vote is to get Trump in power because I think what he will do is less bad than what Biden has done" then other than me thinking you are wrong in your calculation, I have no argument.

You are choosing between Biden and Trump. (I mean, YOU aren't. You don't vote.)
One of those two results is the one you think will be better for the country, the world, the Palestinians, what have you.

That's all I am saying. There is no way you are NOT making that choice.
Encouraging people to not vote for Biden is saying you think Trump being in charge is the better result.

You seem to keep wanting to avoid that simple fact.

Biden and the dems have made and continue to make the choice to aid genocide in Gaza.
The fact that people won't vote for him because he's Genocide Joe is on Biden, not voters.
The guilt that rump will likely win is on Biden and the dems, not on the people who cannot now support him.

Never Again means you do not ever again support genocide.
Its your choice to actively support genocide using whatever justification you want just as its my choice to say I will do what I can to not allow it to happen again.

Its a choice.
You choose to support genocide because of your fear of rump.
I choose to not ever support genocide.

 

[Valcazar]

On the contrary, you've been arguing that it doesn't matter that people have moral lines they won't cross, like torturing babies or voting to aid genocide, that those lines must be thrown away or else you would be 'punishing' a candidate just for aiding genocide. That supporting what you say is a very flawed system is more important than having morals.

Have we reached the point that voting is itself "supporting the flawed system"?
That didn't take long.

That's unlike you to accuse people of lying, you know you have to prove intent and knowledge that the claim is wrong for that charge.

Sorry.
That really should have said "lying to yourself".

My strategy is that I wouldn't vote for a convicted felon, rapist, conman who attempted a coup just as much as I wouldn't vote for someone actively aiding a genocide. That personal moral choice is more important to me than having someone try to blame me for letting rump gain office when that blame lies with Biden and the dems and their support of genocide.

Yes,
I understand that.
This is why I keep posting this meme.



Thinking your "personal moral choice" is the important part of voting is the problem.
The system punishes you and the rest of society for choosing that way.
Ranking your fee fees first in a plurality first system is a bad choice.

I accept I will never convince you, though.
You are far more of a deontologist in your ethics.

I may lament how that interacts with the actual voting system in the US and Canada, but it is what it is.

Biden and the dems have made and continue to make the choice to aid genocide in Gaza.
The fact that people won't vote for him because he's Genocide Joe is on Biden, not voters.
The guilt that rump will likely win is on Biden and the dems, not on the people who cannot now support him.

This is where I made my mistake, I think.
I thought this was just you trying to assuage guilt/give a permission system, but it really is an outcome of your ethics.

Never Again means you do not ever again support genocide.
Its your choice to actively support genocide using whatever justification you want just as its my choice to say I will do what I can to not allow it to happen again.

Its a choice.
You choose to support genocide because of your fear of rump.
I choose to not ever support genocide.

And thus you wouldn't lie to save the girl hiding.
I get it.

 

[Frankfooter]

Have we reached the point that voting is itself "supporting the flawed system"?
That didn't take long.



Sorry.
That really should have said "lying to yourself".



Yes,
I understand that.
This is why I keep posting this meme.

View attachment 332458

Thinking your "personal moral choice" is the important part of voting is the problem.
The system punishes you and the rest of society for choosing that way.
Ranking your fee fees first in a plurality first system is a bad choice.

I accept I will never convince you, though.
You are far more of a deontologist in your ethics.

I may lament how that interacts with the actual voting system in the US and Canada, but it is what it is.



This is where I made my mistake, I think.
I thought this was just you trying to assuage guilt/give a permission system, but it really is an outcome of your ethics.



And thus you wouldn't lie to save the girl hiding.
I get it.

Well, as long as this discussion has turned into an accusation that my views are religious and not just morally based and the communication is down to memes. My xitter feed has been filled with posts about the rise of fascism largely due to the failure of liberals on economic policy, attacks on freedoms like the attacks on students and support for colonialism/genocide. Good luck trying to avoid those issues and trying to use the Fox technique of demonizing the opponent to keep it going.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1796623896159920325

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1799285127081861480

 

[basketcase]

And your view is that its pragmatic to vote for either Hitler A or Hitler B,...

??? No one is voting for Sinwar.

 

[basketcase]

Are you going to call them a 'self hating Jew'?
...

No just calling you and your buddy out for tokenism and an idiotic view of condemning all Israelis while also praising some Israelis.

 

[basketcase]

...

Interesting that you've just openly embraced "Liberals are actually fascists" now, though.
...

Jewish conspiracy theories are one area where the far right and far left circle around to shake hands.

 

[basketcase]

...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1799285127081861480

To quote the UN motion,

UN Security Council ADOPTS resolution on ceasefire, hostage release in Gaza; calls on Hamas to accept proposal that has been accepted by Israel

 

[Frankfooter]

No just calling you and your buddy out for tokenism and an idiotic view of condemning all Israelis while also praising some Israelis.

Zionists, basketcase.
Use the word.

I call out zionists.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800327418986520887

 

[Frankfooter]

To quote the UN motion,

UN Security Council ADOPTS resolution on ceasefire, hostage release in Gaza; calls on Hamas to accept proposal that has been accepted by Israel

Done, its Israel that refuses to accept the ceasefire.
As usual.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800284101490233556

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800277135547932817

 

[basketcase]

Done, its Israel that refuses to accept the ceasefire.
As usual.
...

Your claims are as moronic as usual.

Israel made an offer. the US pushed that offer. The UNSC demanded that offer be accepted.

Hamas still says they want to negotiate. They did NOT accept the offer.

 

[basketcase]

Zionists, basketcase.
...

By your definition, all Israelis who want to remain Israelis are Zionists (including the large number of Arab Israelis) and you have made clear you want them dead.

As usual, you don't think self-determination applies to Israelis.

 

[Frankfooter]

Your claims are as moronic as usual.

Israel made an offer. the US pushed that offer. The UNSC demanded that offer be accepted.

Hamas still says they want to negotiate. They did NOT accept the offer.

You know what is totally fucked?
The US prepped exactly what Israel asked for and had it passed as a UNSC resolution.
And still Israel won't accept it.

The ceasefire plan says Israel can continue the 'seige', the genocide through starvation and then return to the genocide once Hamas returns the hostage.
There is no demand for permanent ceasefire or for aid to be allowed through.
But Netanyahu won't agree to even that because he can't stop the genocide without the end of his career.

And still you back more genocide.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800818295370555823

 

[Frankfooter]

By your definition, all zionists who want to remain Israelis are Zionists (including the large number of Arab Israelis) and you have made clear you want them living peacefully with Palestinians.

As usual, you think self-determination applies to Palestinians.

Your post are getting more fucked every day, its hard to even correct them anymore as they are just hate filled rants.
The killing has to to stop.
Both sides must be held to the law.

End the genocide
End apartheid
End the occupation

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1800650518919876677