Pickering Angels

Israel at war

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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So now hatred is a quantitative thing? Who is hated more is supposed to be relevant?


What an utterly rubbish comment.

You post that and hypocritically talk about Israeli racism against Palestinians? It's a smaller issue.

You're beginning to sound like frank by gaslighting. I never said that. You are implying that I said ALL people who are pro-Palestinian to be anti-Semitic. I said there has been anti-Semitism throughout history and there are still people who hate Jews for no other reason than they are Jewish. It would be very convenient for those people to pretend to be pro-Palestinian so that they can display their hate without having to show that they're just Jew haters at heart.

I've addressed those dozens of times.




So, as you say in this very post, discrimination against Palestinians is not the biggest issue. And if you want to talk about systemic racism against Palestinians, lets talk about the systemic racism against Jews in every muslim nation such that Jews were driven out of all of those countries. Where is you moral outrage there. And if it's systemic racism/apartheid why are there Arab/Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset?

Hypocrisy when you never call out Klutz' and franks ultra extreme pro-Palestinian sources. BLATANT HYPOCRISY BY YOU.


Try saying that to frank every time he twists words, which is dozens of times a day.
You constantly try to gaslight me by accusing me of supporting Hamas.
This is a standard trick by zionists right now.

Someone in Calgary was arrested for saying 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'.
Arrested.


The same way President Herzog demanded that US universities all stop Palestine protests because he says they are supporting 'Hamas'.
This is gaslighting.

 

DinkleMouse

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2022
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A different and likely correct opinion on the War Crimes judgements flying about.
The man literally wrote the book on modern MOUT and actually engaged in it. On one hand it's hard to disagree with him. On the other hand I do.

He's assuming everything Israel is saying they've done is true. He's assuming all they actually have intelligence indicating what they claim they did.

And yet that's exactly the position the US was in when Bush was about to be indicted. I also think he's misframing "necessity" because there's no mention of it in Hague, Geneva or Rome. There's the legal maxim of "quod est necessarium est licitum", but following the ICRC link in his essay I still read the same as I always have: the counter to necessity is proportionality (and self-defense). If it's as simple as saying "Oh it was necessary for our objective", then nothing is a war crime.

And that's where we disagree. He's saying, "But then everything would be a war crime," and I'm saying, "But then nothing would be a war crime," and that's the difficult thing with proportionality. As alluded to in his dissertation and references, "it's trying to strike a balance" which is difficult when putting war against civilian lives.

I also think he's in a tough spot because everyone knows who he is. He's got enough experience to know he can't just trust everything Israel says just life he can't trust everything anyone else in the region is saying. It's probably more wise to give Israel the benefit of the doubt for now because that's easy to retract. Whereas no one knows me. I don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. So he's assuming Israel has the intelligence they claim they do and that their operations were carried out the way they claimed that they were and that they have the evidence that they claim that have. I'm not giving them that benefit of the doubt because civilians are dying and I'm not trusting by nature.

If evidence comes out showing that there were people shooting or the windows of hospitals they bombed, I'll admit I was wrong. But I don't feel bad about it. Erring on the side of caution when it comes to thousands of dead civilians is a "mistake" I can live with.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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I'm all for negotiations.
Ceasefire and negotiate for returning all prisoners/hostages on both sides.
Charge the leaders of both sides for all war crimes.
End apartheid.
End the occupation.

Stop the genocide.

Why are you against this?
Why are you against saving Gazan lives?
Why do you promote the continued bombing of Gaza and the inherent casualties?
Why make the suffering last longer?

Release the hostages immediately.
Hamas surrender unconditionally and give up control of Gaza.
Not that it is genocide, but the killing would stop immediately.
Being the humanitarian you claim to be (fraudster) you'd be saving thousands of lives of Gazans rather than your drawn out cockamamie plan.

Israel is going to win the war, regardless. Why make more innocent people needlessly die?

How do you think this war will play out, frank?
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lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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Oblivion
What a nasty, duplicitous, racist and Nazi like thing to say.

Here are a few other choice quotes by the way:

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." ~ Golda Meir, former Israeli Prime Minister, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." ~ Golda Meir, former Israeli Prime Minister, June 15, 1969.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." ~ Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" ~ David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

"We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." ~ David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." ~ Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." ~ Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." ~ Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, 14 July 1972.

"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimetre of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." ~ Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.



I don't have to. Are you also saying they realistically will not do the right things like perhaps giving land back to the Palestinians or some such?
Israel will never willingly “give back” their territory to the Arabs anymore than Canada or the British crown will “ give back” Canada to the First Nations peoples.
Certainly further terrorist attacks like October 7, 2023 on Israel will in the more scenarios current Gaza situation.
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
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If evidence comes out showing that there were people shooting or the windows of hospitals they bombed, I'll admit I was wrong. But I don't feel bad about it. Erring on the side of caution when it comes to thousands of dead civilians is a "mistake" I can live with.
Its pretty impossible to investigate IDF claims but Al Jazeera tried to look at the claims about tunnels under a hospital.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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The man literally wrote the book on modern MOUT and actually engaged in it. On one hand it's hard to disagree with him. On the other hand I do.

He's assuming everything Israel is saying they've done is true. He's assuming all they actually have intelligence indicating what they claim they did.

And yet that's exactly the position the US was in when Bush was about to be indicted. I also think he's misframing "necessity" because there's no mention of it in Hague, Geneva or Rome. There's the legal maxim of "quod est necessarium est licitum", but following the ICRC link in his essay I still read the same as I always have: the counter to necessity is proportionality (and self-defense). If it's as simple as saying "Oh it was necessary for our objective", then nothing is a war crime.

And that's where we disagree. He's saying, "But then everything would be a war crime," and I'm saying, "But then nothing would be a war crime," and that's the difficult thing with proportionality. As alluded to in his dissertation and references, "it's trying to strike a balance" which is difficult when putting war against civilian lives.

I also think he's in a tough spot because everyone knows who he is. He's got enough experience to know he can't just trust everything Israel says just life he can't trust everything anyone else in the region is saying. It's probably more wise to give Israel the benefit of the doubt for now because that's easy to retract. Whereas no one knows me. I don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt. So he's assuming Israel has the intelligence they claim they do and that their operations were carried out the way they claimed that they were and that they have the evidence that they claim that have. I'm not giving them that benefit of the doubt because civilians are dying and I'm not trusting by nature.

If evidence comes out showing that there were people shooting or the windows of hospitals they bombed, I'll admit I was wrong. But I don't feel bad about it. Erring on the side of caution when it comes to thousands of dead civilians is a "mistake" I can live with.
As I said, its like judging at the Olympics during the Cold War.
 

DinkleMouse

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Jan 15, 2022
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Its pretty impossible to investigate IDF claims
IDF claims they have footage and Times of Israel implied they had seen it. It's not inconceivable that said footage might get released one day if it exists.

It's not impossible that the footage exist but contains some intelligence that would jeopardize operations and so for operational security they can't release it yet. Unlikely, but not impossible.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Why are you against saving Gazan lives?
Gaslighting, I call for a ceasefire.

Why do you promote the continued bombing of Gaza and the inherent casualties?
Gaslighting, I call for a ceasefire and sanctions against Israel for apartheid.

Why make the suffering last longer?
Gaslighting, I call for sanctions to end apartheid and end the cycle of violence.

Release the hostages immediately.
Hamas surrender unconditionally and give up control of Gaza.
Not that it is genocide, but the killing would stop immediately.
Being the humanitarian you claim to be (fraudster) you'd be saving thousands of lives of Gazans rather than your drawn out cockamamie plan.
Both sides are committing war crimes.
Both sides should ceasefire and both sides should be investigated.
Arguing that the apartheid occupying power should continue a genocidal occupation in the name of peace is idiotic.

Israel is going to win the war, regardless. Why make more innocent people needlessly die?
How is this different from 2008, 2011, 2014, 2018 and 2021, when Israel made the same claims and tried the same tactics?
The only difference this time is the scale of death and destruction?
Why repeat failure?

How do you think this war will play out, frank?
Biden has already called for a ceasefire.
Netanyahu knows his political career is done if he stops, but without US support he'll have to stop.

Global sanctions will grow.
Israel will be forced to end apartheid.
Palestinians will be given the vote.

Biden urged Netanyahu to agree to ‘three-day pause’ in Gaza fighting: Report

US ‘humiliated every day’ in its relationship with Israel: AJ analyst



 
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richaceg

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Feb 11, 2009
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No, the beginning of this topic was you saying Covert Ops doesn't operate in hostile territory.

So tell us: why isn't Covert Ops going to be effective in Gaza? Clearly you think you understand the topic better than we do so explain it to us.
In order for Mossad to be effective. They need cooperation from civilians....That won't work in Gaza...
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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IDF claims they have footage and Times of Israel implied they had seen it. It's not inconceivable that said footage might get released one day if it exists.

It's not impossible that the footage exist but contains some intelligence that would jeopardize operations and so for operational security they can't release it yet. Unlikely, but not impossible.
IDF released video on the xitter of the hospital with claims that what Al J says is a water supply is actually a Hamas tunnel.
Qatar released a document confirming there was no tunnel.
Hamas invited the UN to inspect the hospital.
 
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shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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There's nothing wrong with using a place where children used to play as a base of operations. That's been very common throughout modern warfare. Schools, especially European boarding schools, are great places for makeshift barracks or field kitchens. Church steeples make for great observation posts. Playgrounds and sports fields are nice and open to accommodate a temporary motor pool or an improvised helipad or a bivouac.

The problem is using a place with children currently playing there as a base of operations. And that's not shown in this video. Did Hamas kick the kids out before they moved in? If so, there's nothing wrong with this from what I can see. This is fairly common in MOUT or FIBUA.

Aside from the fact that Hamas are terrorists chucking missiles at civilians, of course. But that's not the topic of this video; this video is implying kids were there being used as human shields. But implication is not proof.

As with all the other videos I've seen from them in this war so far, the IDF aren't releasing anything that conclusively establishes their narrative. If you want to take it on faith that what they claim is actually what's happening, that's your prerogative. Seems like a silly thing to do if you're one of the people calling out "the other side" for doing that though.
Fair enough.

From what I've seen in mainstream, non-propaganda western media, it seems to be generally accepted that Hamas HAS and IS CURRENTLY employing the use of human shields. There are only a few interviews I've seen where that gets challenged.
 
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DinkleMouse

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Fair enough.

From what I've seen in mainstream, non-propaganda western media, it seems to be generally accepted that Hamas HAS and IS CURRENTLY employing the use of human shields. There are only a few interviews I've seen where that gets challenged.
I've never once claimed Hamas isn't.

I just said that footage doesn't prove it. Israel keeps claiming they have proof of stuff and then release things like this that prove nothing. I'm starting to feel like they think we're all too stupid to notice and I find that pretty frustrating. Don't you? If they've got proof, why do they keep releasing the videos that don't show proof?

It's got "Iraq has WMDs" level of deception vibes.
 

mitchell76

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Aug 10, 2010
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Hi Everyone , Aaron Dahan (ramaz graduate) has a coffee shop on 71st and Lexington called Caffe Arrone. He has been donating proceeds to Israel since October 7th. Today his baristas came to work wearing palestinian pins. It was reported to him so he went there to confront them and they all quit. His mom Peggy Dahan is now running the store today.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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What do you think of frank's assessment of what's going on? I know you are both, pretty much, on the same side but he claims to call out both, but he never ever will say a particular thing that Hamas did that was wrong.

He is determined to never admit that the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas was an act of terrorism.

He says both sides should be taken to the Hague. He can cite a dozen specific acts as reasons why Israel should be tried but refuses to cite any reasons why Hamas should go.

Does he actually call out both sides with his broad and sweeping, yet ambiguous statements of accusing both sides, or is he being disingenuous because he refuses to back up those those statements of why he thinks Hamas should be tried the same way he backs up why Israel should be tried?
To Kautilya:
I found this following post of yours. I'm a few pages behind and I'm not sure if you replied to the one above.


Kautilya said:
People hate your posts for lying and gaslighting.
Nobody here supports apartheid, genocide, violence or racial hatred (barring a few outliers, who I will not name). To even insinuate that is another example of your lies.
Dude, you lie all the time. You lie and gaslight. So I will back @shack and what he says about your argumentation style.
 
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