Guns in America: 12 year old girl murders father with gun, then kills herself

[Not getting younger]

I think what we have here is known as a slam dunk It’s a main reason I always bring Alcohol into this now 30 year old debate. Not only is it a very good comparison, not only is the carnage and broken bodies far greater……far greater. With out even bringing domestic violence.

what did we do about that……
Ban alcohol?
Go after responsible drivers?
Or bring the hammer down on those responsible.

Sadly, way too many Canadians buy into the bs. The misrepresentations, the fear mongering, and more I might say…

Dirty Harry, we’ve tried that…For years. They don’t like science and data…they don’t like being shown things. Whether it’s outright lies. Police saying……..they don’t want to listen….that’s obvious in this thread…let alone “out there”..

and damn right I now lay 20-30 years of accumulated blood shed at their feet.

 

[K Douglas]

This is not a truthful representation of the concerns of people who are for stricter gun laws. People dont fear legal gun owners or the guns themselves.

They only fear situations where a guy may purchase a gun legally, like most mass shooters do and then proceed to mass murder people.

Any laws unfortunately will impact legal gun owners as well, but short of Minority Report like science fiction, there is nothing much more the government can do. It does seem to be working because as you say our gun deaths per capita is quite low. On the other hand, the United States right now is out of control and guess what they dont have? Stricter gun laws.

Mass shooters are a very small portion of total gun homicides. But you are correct many of these shooters obtained their firearms legally. In some cases the system failed and they should not have been allowed a gun. Like the Parkland school shooter.

 

[Not getting younger]

Or Nova Scotia.
the RCMP who get to call them Carbines, and the media plays along…..fucked that up huge in more ways than 1. They had warnings. Also from…..his GF. Somehow, everyone magically forgets that. Blames the ARs……smuggled in from…the US

So tired of this shit, 30 years of it. . Hope some of them have learned a few things…doubt it. And I doubt, they will understand that the accumulated blood over this much time. Is…is on their hands.

slam dunk.

 

[dirtyharry555]

Blames the ARs…

That is their literal argument.

 

[Nesbot]

For every one of those, there are thousands of these:

no. .0000000001 0f these.

 

[Nesbot]

The Largest-Ever Survey of American Gun Owners Finds That Defensive Use of Firearms Is Common
The results also confirm that "assault weapons" and "large capacity" magazines are widely used for lawful purposes.

The largest and most comprehensive survey of American gun owners ever conducted suggests that they use firearms in self-defense about 1.7 million times a year. It also confirms that AR-15-style rifles and magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, frequent targets of gun control legislation, are in common use for lawful purposes, which the Supreme Court has said is the test for arms covered by the Second Amendment.

The online survey, which was conducted by Centiment in February and March of 2021, was based on a representative sample of about 54,000 adults, 16,708 of whom were gun owners. Georgetown University political economist William English, who commissioned the survey as part of a book project, presents its major findings in a recent paper available on the Social Science Research Network.
The overall adult gun ownership rate estimated by the survey, 32 percent, is consistent with recent research by Gallup and the Pew Research Center. So is the finding that the rate varies across racial and ethnic groups: It was about 25 percent among African Americans, 28 percent among Hispanics, 19 percent among Asians, and 34 percent among whites. Men accounted for about 58 percent of gun owners.

Because of the unusually large sample, the survey was able to produce state-specific estimates that are apt to be more reliable than previous estimates. Gun ownership rates ranged from about 16 percent in Massachusetts and Hawaii to more than 50 percent in Idaho and West Virginia.
The survey results indicate that Americans own some 415 million firearms, including 171 million handguns, 146 million rifles, and 98 million shotguns. About 30 percent of respondents reported that they had ever owned AR-15s or similar rifles, which are classified as "assault weapons" under several state laws and a proposed federal ban. Such legislation also commonly imposes a limit on magazine capacity, typically 10 rounds. Nearly half of the respondents (48 percent) said they had ever owned magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds.
Those results underline the practical challenges that legislators face when they try to eliminate "assault weapons" or "large capacity" magazines. The survey suggests that up to 44 million AR-15-style rifles and up to 542 million magazines with capacities exceeding 10 rounds are already in circulation.
Those are upper-bound estimates, since people who reported that they ever owned such rifles or magazines may have subsequently sold them. But even allowing for some double counting, these numbers suggest how unrealistic it is to suppose that bans will have a significant impact on criminal use of the targeted products. At the same time, widespread ownership of those products by law-abiding Americans makes the bans vulnerable to constitutional challenges.
Two-thirds of the respondents who reported owning AR-15-style rifles said they used them for recreational target shooting, while half mentioned hunting and a third mentioned competitive shooting. Sixty-two percent said they used such rifles for home defense, and 35 percent cited defense outside the home. Yet politicians who want to ban these rifles insist they are good for nothing but mass murder.


Owners of "large capacity" magazines likewise cited a variety of lawful uses. Recreational target shooting (64 percent) was the most common, followed by home defense (62 percent), hunting (47 percent), defense outside the home (42 percent), and competitive shooting (27 percent).
Politicians who favor a 10-round limit argue that no one except for criminals and police officers really needs a larger magazine. Yet respondents described various situations, based on their personal experiences, where "it would have been useful for defensive purposes to have a firearm with a magazine capacity in excess of 10 rounds." These ranged from muggings and home invasions by multiple attackers to encounters with wild animals.
Maybe these gun owners were wrong to think the ability to fire more than 10 rounds without reloading was important in those situations. But judging from the responses that English quotes, they had cogent reasons for believing that. Bans on "large capacity" magazines routinely exempt current and retired police officers, on the theory that they are especially likely to face threats (such as multiple assailants) that may require more than 10 rounds. It strains credulity to suggest that ordinary citizens never face such threats, and this survey provides further reason to doubt that assumption.

Thirty-one percent of the gun owners said they had used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on multiple occasions. As in previous research, the vast majority of such incidents (82 percent) did not involve firing a gun, let alone injuring or killing an attacker. In more than four-fifths of the cases, respondents reported that brandishing or mentioning a firearm was enough to eliminate the threat.
That reality helps explain the wide divergence in estimates of defensive gun uses. The self-reports of gun owners may not be entirely reliable, since they could be exaggerated, mistaken, or dishonest. But limiting the analysis to cases in which an attacker was wounded or killed, or to incidents that were covered by newspapers or reported to the police, is bound to overlook much more common encounters with less dramatic outcomes.

About half of the defensive gun uses identified by the survey involved more than one assailant. Four-fifths occurred inside the gun owner's home or on his property, while 9 percent happened in a public place and 3 percent happened at work. The most commonly used firearms were handguns (66 percent), followed by shotguns (21 percent) and rifles (13 percent).

Based on the number of incidents that gun owners reported, English estimates that "guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year." That number does not include cases where people defended themselves with guns owned by others, which could help explain why English's figure is lower than a previous estimate by Florida State University criminologists Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. Based on a 1993 telephone survey with a substantially smaller sample, Kleck and Gertz put the annual number at more than 2 million.

Although less than one in 10 of the defensive gun uses identified by English's survey happened in public places, most of the respondents (56 percent) said they had carried handguns for self-defense. More than a third (35 percent) said they did so "sometimes," "often," or "always or almost always." About the same percentage reported that they had wanted to carry handguns in circumstances where local rules prohibited it.
At the time of the survey, the ability to legally carry handguns in public varied widely across jurisdictions. Some states had highly restrictive laws that gave local officials wide discretion to reject carry permit applications, a policy that the Supreme Court recently deemed unconstitutional. Even after that ruling, some states plan to enforce licensing requirements and/or location restrictions that make it difficult for residents to carry handguns for self-defense. Depending on your perspective, the results of this survey demonstrate either the wisdom or the injustice of that strategy.

English's survey also asked about incidents in which respondents believed that the visible presence of a gun had neutralized a potentially violent threat. He says that category would include, for example, "a situation in which a combative customer calmed down after noticing that shop owner had a handgun on his or her hip, or a situation in which a trespasser cooperatively left a property when questioned by a landowner who had a rifle slung over his or her shoulder, or a situation in which a friend showed up with a firearm to help [defuse] a dangerous situation."

Nearly a third of gun owners reported such incidents, and some said they had witnessed them more than once. English says the results imply "approximately 1.5 million incidents per year [in] which the presence of a firearm deterred crime." That estimate, of course, depends on the respondents' subjective impressions, so it is probably less reliable than the estimate of explicit defensive uses, which itself is open to the usual questions about the accuracy of respondents' interpretations and recollections. But even taken with the appropriate measure of salt, the results suggest that competing studies may grossly underestimate the defensive value of guns.

Self-selected group of gun owners who responded to the poll, who self-reported that they used guns in self-defence - including waving them at assailants.

And then the surveyor extrapolated the results.

I'm calling bullshit on those stats. Those surveyed are gun nuts and there's a built-in error factor from out-and-out lying to assholes who wave guns each time a black UPS deliveryman attempts to drop off a package.

If 1.7M Americans used firearms in self defence each year, that means that 1% of adult Americans used a gun in self-defence. The crime stats don't support anything close to that. In decades of living in Canada, I have never known ANYONE who used a firearm in self-defence or who was home invaded or robbed. America is undoubtedly worse than Canada, but still....

Sources suspect as usual.

 

[mandrill]

Gang crime is a much larger issue, if you're going by body count.

Do us a favor and tally total gun deaths after suicides and gang murders are removed.

Then you just have crazies who shoot up malls and assholes who kill their wives and kids, I guess.

 

[mandrill]

That is their literal argument.

something something both sides #politics #news #foxnews

www.youtube.com

Gotta hand it to Kat Abu for being 100 miles ahead of you on that idea!

 

[dirtyharry555]

Then you just have crazies who shoot up malls and assholes who kill their wives and kids, I guess.

Exactly. Tiny percentage.

Nonetheless, now you know what to focus on.

I'm proud of you.

 

[basketcase]

...
So yes.
You have chosen to be fooled, chosen not to learn, chosen who to listen to, chosen to fight for things that won’t help…and meanwhile.
...

Like thinking any government has successfully stopped gang violence?

There’s a lot blood.
After this long, it’s on your hands

Holy histrionics batman.

 

[basketcase]

reasonably informed.
But you want to add back ground checks..
And capacity limits….significant restrictions on handguns…..omg lol. I’m guessing you don’t know what an ATT is.
...

Umm, did you miss that whole part of discussing the US? Other than being okay with more restrictions on handguns, I think Canada does a pretty good job, especially in comparison to our nearest cultural counterparts.

And it's funny but people keep telling me how wrong I am about the "need" for semi-auto hunting rifles but the only evidence you guys give is to tell me I'm wrong. But I'm sure I'll regret my view next time my family is threatened by a herd of wild pigs.

 

[basketcase]

...

I can’t be bothered finding stuff for you, you actually could and should.Rather than I know guns because I drink at camp and can Google “best rifles”…This is the sun so obviously some hyperbole/rhethoric, I can’t be bothered it just there . And is just scratching the surface.

LILLEY: Hundreds of guns go missing from the Mounties, military and other departments

One of the arguments gun control advocates will make for calling for an outright ban on handguns or certain rifles is that if regular citizens don’t have these fire…

torontosun.com

...

So some Sun Op/Ed on police incompetence is supposed to refute the fact that hunters find bolt actions much better?

p.s. pretty funny that you guys admit that cops aren't very good with guns while also saying how important it is for average joes to have those same weapons.

 

[basketcase]

...
Blacks and Hispanics (who are disproportionately represented in crime statistics) are a much larger proportion of the US population than Canada's.

I know I've brought it up before but Canadian crime stats show poverty is the connection, not race. if you want to look at ethnic make up of violent criminals, you'll see Asians on the West Coast, Indigenous through the prairies, blacks in Toronto/Montreal, and whites Down East.

 

[basketcase]

...

I guess in Alpha male world, anyone who isn't an Alpha gets kicked into the garbage heap and the Alphas move on.
...

Said by internet warriors not aware how far down that food chain they are.

 

[basketcase]

LOL, how many murders undertaken by the Proud Boys? ...

Lets not count seditious conspiracy...

 

[basketcase]

Here we go with the hypotheticals.

Let's stick to the facts. The overwhelming majority of illegal handguns used in crime come across the border.

Again, which is why many of us speak up about US gun culture.

 

[basketcase]

I know some won’t like this.
The number of irresponsible gun owners ( stolen, or sold into the black market, are careless handling them)……is dwarfed by the number of irresponsible drinkers that own cars. The carnage they wreak…dwarfs, utterly drawfs…. Can’t understand why some don’t scream to ban booze….
...

Should responsible drivers be "cool" about number the DUIs and fatal motor vehicle collisions too?

Cars: Registered, licensed, insured. Is that the line of argument you want to take?

And that doesn't even get into the fact that cars have an essential use other than as a way to kill.

 

[basketcase]

What does it matter what they are called? Mass shooters use AR-15s to kill routinely.

And how much of that choice is because they can dress up and play soldier with essentially the same weapon as the big boys have? But thankfully the toy soldiers will be able to drool over the more powerful new standard.

Army moving forward with Next Generation Squad Weapon program

FORT BELVOIR, Va. — The Army continues its rigorous testing and evaluation of small arms systems to meet their requirements and deliver increased lethal...

www.army.mil

 

[basketcase]

...
How many times has a Carbine been used to kill a bunch of people here. You do know I hope this is Canada? And make sure, while your searching they werent “Carbines” smuggled from the US ( Nova Scotia)

Again, you're arguing with me that Canadian style gun reform would massively help the US.

 

[basketcase]

No.

"Mass shootings"; the ones that lead the news and fit the narrative justifying the disarmament of legal gun owners are still statistical outliers.
...

And out comes the tinfoil.