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Titanic Submersible

xmontrealer

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May 23, 2005
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I agree in principle that vessels that carry civilians should be government regulated. The issue of course is that the sub exists in a grey area where it's unclear who has jurisdiction over it because it operates in international waters. I am also not sure if regulating Ocean Gate would have changed anything. A well connected and wealthly person has the ability to go with another company that isn't government certified.

I think James Cameron claimed that the industry has never had disaster like this in it's history. That's an excellent track record especially if there hasn't been any regulation thus far. So I don't see how more regulation is going to improve that statistic.

On the other hand, I am not sure how the government can regulate experimental vessels. By definition an experimental vessel isn't regulated. The only way to test material limits and vessel design is to put people at risk. We can certainly reduce the risk by doing lots of virtual and un-manned tests, but someone will have to risk their life at some point. I don't think we should get government involved in that until it goes mainstream.
I heard on NBC news last night that Canadian authorities are looking into why their standards are not as stringent as the US, and allowed a Canadian ship to take the Titan out to sea for it's mission.

Apparently under US laws or policies the Titan did not meet the minimum safety standards that would have allowed a US ship to do that job...
 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
........................
If I'm going into a vessel like that I want to ensure that all the engineers that created it are using the best materials and that they're the best engineers in the field (which would mean 100% male).
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They could have used the best materials and still be doomed.
They might have used the most state-of-the-art carbon fiber
composite but it is the *wrong* type of material to build the
hull. For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
 
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oil&gas

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Ghawar
For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
You might have heard about how awful the pressure the sub
is subject to. Someone said it is like every square inch of the
sub's surface is hit by a bullet. Think about what the best protection
against bullets in WWII was. German Tiger tanks are impervious
to the allies' anti-tank guns. Tiger's armor was only about 100 mm
(4 inches) thick. Steel rules. I would not worry about visiting the
bottom in Mariana Trench in a pressure chamber enclosed by
7 inch steel.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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They could have used the best materials and still be doomed.
They might have used the most state-of-the-art carbon fiber
composite but it is the *wrong* type of material to build the
hull. For protection against implosion at ocean bottom you
have to use the strongest metal alloys.
It is a matter of tensile strength vs compression strength.
 
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oil&gas

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Ghawar
Article written by a guy in the company who sold to Ocean Gate
the composite material to build the sub. If the dead crew had read
and believed what was said in the article then they might have
been scammed.

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Composite submersibles: Under pressure in deep, deep waters
Published 5/10/2017
Jeff Sloan

Even as massive amounts of money, energy and attention are being paid to the development of privately funded launch and delivery systems for space exploration — and the application of composites therein — an environment much closer to home is, despite its proximity, as remote and difficult in its own way to access and study.

At an average depth of about 3,810m, with a maximum depth, at Challenger Deep in the Pacific, of 10,916m, the world’s oceans offer a formidable challenge to explorers. Scientists, marine biologists or oil and gas engineers and others who would dive to such depths require a vessel that can withstand deepsea water pressure that, at the deepest point (almost 11,000m), is a massive 5,551 psi or 378 atmospheres.

Such vessels, called submersibles, offer capacity for three to five occupants, can explore depths from 1,200m to 6,500m, provide a viewing porthole or portholes, and are equipped with lighting systems and cameras. Conventional submersibles feature steel, aluminum or titanium hulls. Metallic hulls, however, because they are not buoyant in designs for depths of more than 2,000m, present challenges when it comes to managing ballast for ascent and descent. In particular, metal-hulled craft require the use of syntactic foam attached to the outside of the craft to achieve neutral buoyancy.

In 2014, submersibles manufacturer OceanGate Inc. (Seattle, WA, US) was coming off the successful launch of Cyclops 1, its steel-hulled, five-person craft, rated for underwater exploration to a depth of 500m. The company was set to embark on development of Cyclops 2, a five-person research-class submersible, designed for a maximum depth of 4,000m.

OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush says the company had been evaluating the potential of using a carbon fiber composite hull since 2010, primarily because it permits creation of a pressure vessel that is naturally buoyant and, therefore, would enable OceanGate to forgo the use — and the significant expense — of syntactic foam on its exterior. So, for Cyclops 2 OceanGate decided to avoid the metallic hull altogether
and began a search for a manufacturer that could help it develop a composite hull.

It is believed that the first time carbon fiber composites were applied to the hull of a deep-diving, manned submersible was for the one-person DeepFlight Challenger, commissioned by adventurist Steve Fossett in 2000 for a dive to the bottom of Challenger Deep (see Deepsea submersible incorporates composite pressure capsule). Designed and built by famed marine engineer and submersible designer Graham Hawkes, a principal at the time of Hawkes Ocean Technologies (Point Richmond, CA, US), it featured a cylindrical carbon fiber/epoxy composite hull with 6-inch-thick walls. It was nearing completion in 2007 when Fossett was killed in a light-aircraft crash. The Challenger was subsequently sold, and has yet to be fully tested or deployed in a deepsea dive. Spencer Composites Inc. (Sacramento, CA, US), a designer/manufacturer of composite parts and structures for a variety of end-markets, had designed and fabricated the DeepFlight Challenger’s hull.

“I knew of the submersible Graham Hawkes designed for Steve Fossett,” says OceanGate’s Rush. “And I knew Spencer Composites manufactured that cylinder.”

Spencer Composites’ president Brian Spencer signed a contract with OceanGate for the Cyclops 2 hull in early January 2017 and was presented with very basic — but challenging — performance parameters: Length, 2,540 mm; outside diameter, 1,676 mm; service pressure, 6,600 psi; pressure safety factor, 2.25. “They basically said, ‘This is the pressure we have to meet, this is the factor of safety, this is the basic envelope. Go design and build it,’” Spencer reports. And he was given six weeks in which to do it.
......................................
Cyclops 2 will enter the water for the first time in November of this year, followed by a deep-dive test in early 2018. If that goes well, its first mission, in May 2018 in the North Atlantic, will be a descent to the wreckage of the Titanic, which sits 3,688m under the surface. The goal? Capture high-definition still and video images of the Titanic, and gather sonar and laser measurements of the ship and the ship’s debris.

After the Titanic mission, Cyclops 2 will be off on a variety of other missions that, says Rush, will keep the craft busy for the rest of 2018. OceanGate, he says, will build at least four Cyclops 2 submersibles, and as many as 20, depending on demand. Rush says Cyclops 3, 4 and 5 are already on the drawing board, will target depths of 6,000m and likely will feature carbon fiber composite hulls.

 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
It is a matter of tensile strength vs compression strength.
I don't know if that has anything to do with tensile
strength. The carbon fiber shell could have developed
internal cracks on repeated descent to ocean bottoms.
Remember it is more brittle than ductile.
 
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james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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Well..... mistakes happen. No industry is more regulated than the atomic industry, and accidents and incidents still happen. The air transport industry is extremely heavily regulated and planes still crash.
Yes, which is one of the biggest reasons I am totally opposed to nuclear power. There have been three (3) big failures to date that we are all aware of (and I'm sure that therea are scores of incidents we are not aware of), 3 Mile Island, Fukushima and the grand daddy of them all - Chernobyl. It's not a question of if, it's only a question of when we suffer a monster of an incident.

Whenever the righteous go on about how safe nuclear power is, I always ask 1 question. "Name me one machine that has never failed"? They can't. Because there isn't one.
 

shakenbake

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Durham Region, Den of Iniquity
www.vafanculo.it
I don't know if that has anything to do with tensile
strength. The carbon fiber shell could have developed
internal cracks on repeated descent to ocean bottoms.
Remember it is more brittle than ductile.
I think that you are both saying the same thing. Compression of carbon fibre composites could lead to micro fissures and compromised performance.
 

barnacler

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May 13, 2013
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When was the last time you looked at the tax tables ???
When was the last time you read the tax code ???
Ontario top combined marginal tax rate is 53% = gee, that's higher than for $50,000 of income!
 

barnacler

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May 13, 2013
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Yes, which is one of the biggest reasons I am totally opposed to nuclear power. There have been three (3) big failures to date that we are all aware of (and I'm sure that therea are scores of incidents we are not aware of), 3 Mile Island, Fukushima and the grand daddy of them all - Chernobyl. It's not a question of if, it's only a question of when we suffer a monster of an incident.

Whenever the righteous go on about how safe nuclear power is, I always ask 1 question. "Name me one machine that has never failed"? They can't. Because there isn't one.
So what, we still use all kinds of machines, nuclear power has the best safety record.
 
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barnacler

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May 13, 2013
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As a % billionaires don't pay as much as they should. They have access to tools and techniques even most others in the top of the income brackets don't.
Evidence
 

Canadiandude

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Jan 24, 2021
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The best singers, dancers, songwriters, philosophers, musicians, builders, athletes, scientists, engineers, mathematicians, tradesmen, chefs, fashion designers, business moguls, hunters, pilots, writers, leaders, inventors, programmers, are male. It's a man world.
Beyoncé broke the record for most Grammy wins ever. Kylie Jenner is the youngest billionaire business mogul. Serena Williams is the ONLY player from BOTH genders to have ever won singles titles at least 6 times. Judy Faulkner who’s worth $7.4 B founded a medical software that is used by top medical centres. Coco Chanel is known as one of the best designers of all time. J.K Rolling (writer of Harry Potter) is the richest author in the world. Oprah Winfrey, well I don’t think I need to explain she’s Oprah! There are tons more the list goes on and on. There’s really no need to be sexist it’s 2023 whatever men can do woman can also and sometimes better.
BTW you saying “the best.....are male” you don’t claim or appoint who’s the best at whatever, that’s your opinion, not the worlds.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
I think that you are both saying the same thing. Compression of carbon fibre composites could lead to micro fissures and compromised performance.
I am no material scientist but I have this possibly inaccurate
notion that tensile strength is a measure of resistance to force
of shear. The carbon fiber shell of Titan was subject crushing
force of compression.
 

barnacler

Well-known member
May 13, 2013
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Would there be a thread about taxes that would fit that discussion better than the one about submersibles? 🤔😊
LOL, you are quite right, but then again, the usual envious types used the fact that there were billionaires on board to divert the discussion.
 

Knuckle Ball

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Oct 15, 2017
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LOL, you are quite right, but then again, the usual envious types used the fact that there were billionaires on board to divert the discussion.
There could only be billionaires onboard; they are the only ones with enough cash to jam themselves into a death can and travel 12000 feet underwater to crush themselves.
 

dognutz

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Jan 25, 2023
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This will be forgotten about in 3 days, remember the guy that got eaten by a shark, me neither.
 
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