Prominent conservatives issue 72 Page report rebutting Trump election claims

Dutch Oven

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For a court that is now all about states rights, they sure crushed a state led initiative to count all the votes. So, I think that qualifies as interference. If they did nothing, then you would be right. But, they did step in to overrule a state supreme court. How is that not interference?
A court interfering with another court is, in the final analysis, the determination of the legal system. Is the 3rd time the charm for you?

You are trying to say that the decision of a state court reflects the will of a state. It doesn't, for obvious reasons.
 

silentkisser

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A court interfering with another court is, in the final analysis, the determination of the legal system. Is the 3rd time the charm for you?

You are trying to say that the decision of a state court reflects the will of a state. It doesn't, for obvious reasons.
Final analysis? The Supreme Court doesn't do that frequently. And in a matter like this seems highly dubious. And the fact that the court voted 5-4 on party lines also speaks volumes. But, sure, that isn't interference. But then again, you still think Biden won because of some type of shenanigans, because Trump was loved by all of America...:rolleyes:
 

Dutch Oven

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Final analysis? The Supreme Court doesn't do that frequently. And in a matter like this seems highly dubious. And the fact that the court voted 5-4 on party lines also speaks volumes. But, sure, that isn't interference. But then again, you still think Biden won because of some type of shenanigans, because Trump was loved by all of America...:rolleyes:
Well, three strikes and you're out!

I don't think anything about the 2020 election until the evidence ever comes in. But that might be never. Trump was clearly not loved by vast swaths of America. However, that didn't prevent him from beating Hillary Clinton - First Woman President (patent pending)! What was different in 2020? Lets see: Covid scare tactics, mail in voting, ballot harvesting, 4 years of MSM attacks, truckloads of ballots delivered to ballot counting stations in the wee hours, and, perhaps, some voting machine magic on machines that many states (and Canada) refuse to touch with a ten foot pole. Who is to say which of these accounts for why a widely unpopular man would be elected in 2016 but lose to a doddering fool (who was set to lose his primary, until the party manoevred him to a come from behind victory) in 2020? It remains a mystery.
 

jcpro

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Well, three strikes and you're out!

I don't think anything about the 2020 election until the evidence ever comes in. But that might be never. Trump was clearly not loved by vast swaths of America. However, that didn't prevent him from beating Hillary Clinton - First Woman President (patent pending)! What was different in 2020? Lets see: Covid scare tactics, mail in voting, ballot harvesting, 4 years of MSM attacks, truckloads of ballots delivered to ballot counting stations in the wee hours, and, perhaps, some voting machine magic on machines that many states (and Canada) refuse to touch with a ten foot pole. Who is to say which of these accounts for why a widely unpopular man would be elected in 2016 but lose to a doddering fool (who was set to lose his primary, until the party manoevred him to a come from behind victory) in 2020? It remains a mystery.
And that's an opinion I agree with completely.
 

silentkisser

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Well, three strikes and you're out!

I don't think anything about the 2020 election until the evidence ever comes in. But that might be never. Trump was clearly not loved by vast swaths of America. However, that didn't prevent him from beating Hillary Clinton - First Woman President (patent pending)! What was different in 2020? Lets see: Covid scare tactics, mail in voting, ballot harvesting, 4 years of MSM attacks, truckloads of ballots delivered to ballot counting stations in the wee hours, and, perhaps, some voting machine magic on machines that many states (and Canada) refuse to touch with a ten foot pole. Who is to say which of these accounts for why a widely unpopular man would be elected in 2016 but lose to a doddering fool (who was set to lose his primary, until the party manoevred him to a come from behind victory) in 2020? It remains a mystery.
See, that's hilarious. All these things you bring up have been debunked. The machines were used in past elections with no complaints (and no proven issues). And the reality here is that these GOP led states chose these voting machines. It is, after all, a state right....It doesn't matter if other states didn't want to use them. Ballot harvesting? Trump attacked for four years? What about what happened to Hillary -- She was attacked for 20+. Then Comey drops that bullshit investigation jazz two weeks before the vote. So, yeah, how did Trump win again? That's right, he lost the popular vote by four million, and only the electoral college saved his ass...just like Bush before him. The "doddering fool" sure looked superior and more in control of his facilities than Trump, who can't drink water from a bottle or walk down a ramp unassisted.

Basically, you sound like a whinny loser who can't accept the fact Trump lost. And lost big. And lost legitimately during a free and fair vote during a pandemic. He was the one that seemed to suppress his supporters from voting by mail. His post master general looked determined to make delivery times of ballots and other mail longer -- possibly missing deadlines. I mean, there were shenanigans here from Trump. And he still lost. He was deeply unpopular. I'm sure not everyone who voted from Biden loves him, but they sure as hell hated the former guy. So, maybe some GOP voters held their noses and picked Biden.
 

Dutch Oven

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See, that's hilarious. All these things you bring up have been debunked. The machines were used in past elections with no complaints (and no proven issues). And the reality here is that these GOP led states chose these voting machines. It is, after all, a state right....It doesn't matter if other states didn't want to use them. Ballot harvesting? Trump attacked for four years? What about what happened to Hillary -- She was attacked for 20+. Then Comey drops that bullshit investigation jazz two weeks before the vote. So, yeah, how did Trump win again? That's right, he lost the popular vote by four million, and only the electoral college saved his ass...just like Bush before him. The "doddering fool" sure looked superior and more in control of his facilities than Trump, who can't drink water from a bottle or walk down a ramp unassisted.

Basically, you sound like a whinny loser who can't accept the fact Trump lost. And lost big. And lost legitimately during a free and fair vote during a pandemic. He was the one that seemed to suppress his supporters from voting by mail. His post master general looked determined to make delivery times of ballots and other mail longer -- possibly missing deadlines. I mean, there were shenanigans here from Trump. And he still lost. He was deeply unpopular. I'm sure not everyone who voted from Biden loves him, but they sure as hell hated the former guy. So, maybe some GOP voters held their noses and picked Biden.
Nothing is "debunked", certainly not by the superficial analysis you offer.

You fundamentally misunderstand who approves the use of voting machines, who supervises their use, and the difference between software and hardware vulnerabilities. In short, you don't understand enough for us to have a serious discussion of this issue.

The fact that you were impressed with the mental faculties exhibited by Biden in the 2020 campaign kind of says it all about your analytical ability and/or objectivity.

For someone to whine about losing they at least have to say - "my guy was robbed". Instead, you think you can ignore that the issue is properly framed as "some valid questions were asked, so give the public some convincing answers". Maybe those answers would have satisfied everyone. It's reasonable to assume that the side fighting against such investigation and reporting didn't think so.

The only word in your entire post that rings true is "maybe".
 

silentkisser

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Nothing is "debunked", certainly not by the superficial analysis you offer.

You fundamentally misunderstand who approves the use of voting machines, who supervises their use, and the difference between software and hardware vulnerabilities. In short, you don't understand enough for us to have a serious discussion of this issue.

The fact that you were impressed with the mental faculties exhibited by Biden in the 2020 campaign kind of says it all about your analytical ability and/or objectivity.

For someone to whine about losing they at least have to say - "my guy was robbed". Instead, you think you can ignore that the issue is properly framed as "some valid questions were asked, so give the public some convincing answers". Maybe those answers would have satisfied everyone. It's reasonable to assume that the side fighting against such investigation and reporting didn't think so.

The only word in your entire post that rings true is "maybe".
Ok Dutch. Keep on keeping on. You like to pretend you have some sort of deep insight into this, but you're just rehashing right-wing talking points. The facts don't matter, obviously. The major issue here is that it wouldn't matter how thorough an investigation would be, the whiners would still claim there was some sort of systemic failure or that Trump was cheated. Basically, you and your ilk would just keep moving the goal posts. As Ben Shapiro loves to say, fuck your feelings. The facts are pretty cut and dry. Trump lost. There was no fraud. There is no evidence, despite Dinesh D'Souza's fever dreams, of cheating or ballot harvesting. The machine's that were used were overseen in MANY jurisdictions by GOP Secretaries of State. Were they perfect? Who can say, but I didn't hear Trump of Hillary bitch about them in 2016....and not much changed between the elections.

You may not like Biden, I'm not a huge fan. But it's been over 600 days since the election and Biden being declared the victor. Even if he was losing it, he's still a massive upgrade over Trump. Biden is not a petty, whiny little bitch who is out to enrich himself and could give a flying fuck at the average American. Has he made mistakes? Yes, he hasn't been perfect. But Which President has been? But his mistakes are no where near as dumb or damaging as Trump's. America's allies don't have to worry they'll be sold out to Russia, or suddenly get slapped with tariffs for some slight to the Cheeto King.
 

bver_hunter

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kherg007

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The fact that you've had to cobble analysis together from Barr's testimony, or a limited audit in one state (without access to all the required records, as you might recall) demonstrates the absence of comprehensive election audits reporting back to the states and to the people, making my point.

I do not accept that mail-ins were necessary because of Covid. I believe that mail-ins were desired by the Democrats and that Covid was used as an excuse to implement them, and also an excuse for the loose procedures put in place to ensure their integrity. There were always good election integrity (and democratic) reasons to require in person voting. Those reasons continue to apply.

The facts you cite in support of audits are red herrings, since none of those facts were the basis for requesting audits. The bases for requesting audits are the myriad allegations set out in the entire panoply of lawsuits filed. Whether those allegations met the standards of the courts is irrelevant to whether the states concerned should have fully investigated and reported their results. You are seeing the results of choosing not to do so.

Carl Sagan was talking about conclusions, not the basis for investigations. Every inquiry starts from small pieces of information, and grows from there.

You are right that the inquiry into this issue was open and shut. They just left out the investigation part that's supposed to come between those two phases of an inquiry.
Audits in AZ, Wisconsin, Minnesota, pillow guy, Georgia (not one state) shows nada. Courtrooms adjudicate claims. Nada. Renown and admitted liars and bullshit artists bloviating on fox news is not evidence ( particularly now we find a few of them WERE the fraudsters e.g., the guy whinging about his dead wife voting as evidence of fraud, when it turns out it was him who committed fraud by filling out his dead wife's ballot. You hit a point where ever allegation is unfounded that you have to conclude there is nothing there. Particularly when the people pushing fraud were pushing fraud BEFORE the actual election, and their supports said their strategy was flood the zone w shut just claim fraud and claim victory and fuck the vote.

Batshit batshit batshit.

BTW scientific theory is based on evidence. You have to have evidence. It has to withstand peer review or a courtroom. Not one of these have. Lots of hearsay, when you run it to ground has nothing. Where is the explosive allegation? Who will attest to it under oath?
 

Dutch Oven

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BTW scientific theory is based on evidence. You have to have evidence. It has to withstand peer review or a courtroom. Not one of these have. Lots of hearsay, when you run it to ground has nothing. Where is the explosive allegation? Who will attest to it under oath?
All of the affiants in the various cases provided affidavits under oath, and were prepared to testify under oath at a trial. Didn't you know (or understand) that? Some of them gave evidence under oath in state senate hearings.

The allegations were not "run into the ground", nor were they responded to in substance, nor investigated. You're just wrong about what happened as a matter of procedure.
 
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Dutch Oven

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Even if he was losing it, [Biden is] still a massive upgrade over Trump.
That one sentence says it all about your analytical skills. I can't think of a single way that the Biden administration has outperformed the Trump administration. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. As Obama warned us (and he should know) we shouldn't underestimate Joe's ability to cock things up. Was Obama ever right about that!
 
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kherg007

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All of the affiants in the various cases provided affidavits under oath, and were prepared to testify under oath at a trial. Didn't you know (or understand) that? Some of them gave evidence under oath in state senate hearings.

The allegations were not "run into the ground", nor were they responded to in substance, nor investigated. You're just wrong about what happened as a matter of procedure.

Then read the article. The title sounds important...but...from the article:
However, 13th Circuit Court Judge Kevin Elsenheimer in May threw out a lawsuits seeking a recount in Antrim County.

"A petitioner ... does not get to choose his own audit criteria," Elsenheimer said. "Rather the Legislature has given that authority ... to the secretary of state."

Benson pushed back against the election fraud claims saying, “Enough is enough.”

“Those sincerely wanting credible audits of our elections should be reminded that here in Michigan election officials - including 1,300 Republican, Democrat and non-partisan local clerks - have conducted more than 250 actual, by the book, transparent audits of the November 2020 election - and each confirmed that it was safe and secure, and the results are an accurate reflection of the will of the people,” Benson said in a statement.
 

Dutch Oven

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Then read the article. The title sounds important...but...from the article:
However, 13th Circuit Court Judge Kevin Elsenheimer in May threw out a lawsuits seeking a recount in Antrim County.

"A petitioner ... does not get to choose his own audit criteria," Elsenheimer said. "Rather the Legislature has given that authority ... to the secretary of state."

Benson pushed back against the election fraud claims saying, “Enough is enough.”

“Those sincerely wanting credible audits of our elections should be reminded that here in Michigan election officials - including 1,300 Republican, Democrat and non-partisan local clerks - have conducted more than 250 actual, by the book, transparent audits of the November 2020 election - and each confirmed that it was safe and secure, and the results are an accurate reflection of the will of the people,” Benson said in a statement.
So you knew the answer to your own question?
 

silentkisser

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That one sentence says it all about your analytical skills. I can't think of a single way that the Biden administration has outperformed the Trump administration. In fact, it's been quite the opposite. As Obama warned us (and he should know) we shouldn't underestimate Joe's ability to cock things up. Was Obama ever right about that!
OK, let's look at the economy. Biden has seen explosive job growth the like of which Trump could only dream of. Not only did the jobs lost under Trump return, he has seen more jobs created. He was able to pass an desperately needed infrastructure bill that Trump kept talking about, but could never get done. So, basically, Biden got shit done while Trump whined on twitter while having his morning diaper change. Diplomatically, Biden was able to rally NATO allies so they supported Ukraine and not cow-tow to Putin, which is what Trump would have done.

My analytical skills are top notch compared to a partisan hack like yourself. I'm actually able to see where Biden makes mistakes (or Trudeau for that matter). I don't just repeat the talking points of Breitbart of the Daily Caller, while ignoring the total lack of leadership Trump showed. But, please, go on and enlighten us how Trump is the best President ever...
 
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silentkisser

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So you knew the answer to your own question?
LOL!!!

So, all 7,000 of these people have evidence that there was election fraud??? Or, are they swearing in an affidavit that they FEEL there was election fraud? Like, here's an interesting question: If they actually investigated the veracity of all 7,000 of these affidavits, how many of those 7,000 would be facing perjury charges? If they were brought into court, how many would suddenly change their story?

This news article shows just how the righties here cannot take losing. Michigan did a re-count, which showed that Biden won. But, no, the right has to move the goalposts and say they didn't to a forensic audit....Do they really think they'll see a different outcome from Arizona???

Seriously, this is pathetic. Trump lost. He lost by several MILLION votes. He lost because people recognized he was a terrible president who was only in it for himself. He lost because he couldn't provide leadership during a serious crises that he tried to downplay and ignore. He lost because Biden, despite his flaws, was a superior candidate.
 
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kherg007

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LOL!!!

So, all 7,000 of these people have evidence that there was election fraud??? Or, are they swearing in an affidavit that they FEEL there was election fraud? Like, here's an interesting question: If they actually investigated the veracity of all 7,000 of these affidavits, how many of those 7,000 would be facing perjury charges? If they were brought into court, how many would suddenly change their story?

This news article shows just how the righties here cannot take losing. Michigan did a re-count, which showed that Biden won. But, no, the right has to move the goalposts and say they didn't to a forensic audit....Do they really think they'll see a different outcome from Arizona???

Seriously, this is pathetic. Trump lost. He lost by several MILLION votes. He lost because people recognized he was a terrible president who was only in it for himself. He lost because he couldn't provide leadership during a serious crises that he tried to downplay and ignore. He lost because Biden, despite his flaws, was a superior candidate.
I quoted what was in the article but he must not have read it beyond the headline. Michigan investigated 250 and nothing.
 
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Dutch Oven

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OK, let's look at the economy. Biden has seen explosive job growth the like of which Trump could only dream of. Not only did the jobs lost under Trump return, he has seen more jobs created. He was able to pass an desperately needed infrastructure bill that Trump kept talking about, but could never get done. So, basically, Biden got shit done while Trump whined on twitter while having his morning diaper change. Diplomatically, Biden was able to rally NATO allies so they supported Ukraine and not cow-tow to Putin, which is what Trump would have done.
Are you trying to make me laugh? The "job recovery" is a simply a return to employment post Covid lockdowns and lockdown hangover. There isn't an economist not on the Democrat payroll who would say the US economy is in better shape now than under Trump (pre-Covid). Total employment grew 6 million under Trump. Total employment under Biden has only returned to, roughly, the 2019 level under Trump: https://www.statista.com/statistics/269959/employment-in-the-united-states/ And, lets not forget, this return to employment was led by States backing off their Covid restrictions, not by the Federal government.

Of course, total employment doesn't tell the whole story. There was average wage growth in the Trump economy, both in raw terms and aggregate of inflation. Under Biden, there has been aggregate wage losses during both his years in office. Voters know this, because they know what's left in their bank accounts after paying the rent, filling the tanks of their cars, and buying groceries. They can't be bullshitted about this.

This recurring Biden talking point is about as true as Joe's claim he graduated at the top of his law class!

My analytical skills are top notch compared to a partisan hack like yourself. I'm actually able to see where Biden makes mistakes (or Trudeau for that matter). I don't just repeat the talking points of Breitbart of the Daily Caller, while ignoring the total lack of leadership Trump showed. But, please, go on and enlighten us how Trump is the best President ever...
If you were astute as you think you are, you'd have noticed I never refer to these media sites for the points that I make in my posts. You have me confused with Charlemagne!

Similarly, if you were astute, you'd know that I don't claim Trump was the best president ever - just that his policies were a lot better than Biden's, and that he had/has more of his marbles.
 

Dutch Oven

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LOL!!!

So, all 7,000 of these people have evidence that there was election fraud??? Or, are they swearing in an affidavit that they FEEL there was election fraud? Like, here's an interesting question: If they actually investigated the veracity of all 7,000 of these affidavits, how many of those 7,000 would be facing perjury charges? If they were brought into court, how many would suddenly change their story?

This news article shows just how the righties here cannot take losing. Michigan did a re-count, which showed that Biden won. But, no, the right has to move the goalposts and say they didn't to a forensic audit....Do they really think they'll see a different outcome from Arizona???

Seriously, this is pathetic. Trump lost. He lost by several MILLION votes. He lost because people recognized he was a terrible president who was only in it for himself. He lost because he couldn't provide leadership during a serious crises that he tried to downplay and ignore. He lost because Biden, despite his flaws, was a superior candidate.
I think you lack the toolbox for a discussion of the legal process vs. the political process.
 
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