I love when these guys urge us to listen to a few thousand scientists but not the much greater percentage that argue the exact opposite.
Thousands of scientists urge end to 'devastating' lockdowns
- Thread starter Phil C. McNasty
- Start date
You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. The fact is that the survival rate of corona is 99.97% for anyone under 50. For a 74 year old man like Trump the survival rate is 96%
Nature.com is a trusted science source. Presumably this is what the 'stable genius' referred to as should you.
The coronavirus is most deadly if you are older and male — new data reveal the risks
A slew of detailed studies has now quantified the increased risk the virus poses to older people, men, and other groups.
www.nature.com
Stick to the argument about the law of large numbers. That is an issue, but there is no way around it unfortunately.
I'm right. You're wrong. And i didn't have to lower myself to emotionalism & insults. Emotionally controlled bitter people often don't think rationally. And insulting trolls say all kinds of irrational nonsense. If the shoe fits, wear it.
So Trump was playing Russian Roulette with his life in acting irresponsibly.
And under 50 people acting foolishly, selfishly & irresponsibly are putting the 50+ & "high risk" people's lives & health in peril.
So if you're 70+ there is a very real chance of dying from a C-19 infection. Greater than 5% or 5 in 100.
Also if you're 50-69 there is a very real chance of dying from a C-19 infection. Exactly 5 in 1000.
Anyone wanna play some "Russian Roulette". That's a fool's game.
Wake up.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...ian%20roulette
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...ssian-roulette
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...ssian-roulette
The following is from:
Swing States Polls & Trump-Virus Numbers
While the Red Herd laughs off the 200,000 American dead due to the Trump-Virus, it’s a joke that swing state voters just aren’t getting. Given the still large numbers of “undecided” voters, the Orange Blimp still has time to turn it around, but odds are that pandering to his moron base is more...
www.therxforum.com
Shutdowns were the most effective precaution there was from a cautious health expert perspective. That's why the experts advocated lockdowns. They worked to save millions of lives from death, as well as millions of others from illness, hospitalization, ICU & long term negative health effects. Which would have impacted economies negatively. And led to hospitals being overwhelmed & having to choose between who lives & who dies because they wouldn't have been able to treat many emergency patients on arrival & have been forced to turn many away from timely needed emergency care. Leading to many more deaths.
So you're saying you advocated a Swedish approach "all along" from the beginning of the pandemic? Are you not aware that Sweden has suffered way more infections and deaths relative to their Nordic neighbours with no advantage economically? The Sweden approach has been a failure!
Are you not aware that even apparently healthy young people are dying & suffering long term negative consequences from C-19, in addition to suffering in ICU's from the illness. Which you ignored from my previous post.
"I was infected with coronavirus in March, six months on I’m still unwell
Charlie Russell, 27, is one of an estimated 600,000 people with post-Covid illness, a condition that may give an insight into ME"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...m-still-unwell
More on the long term negative effects of C-19 infection here:
https://terb.cc/xenforo/threads/c-19...vivors.723087/
As for the shutdowns, what is obviously clear is they have had many benefits:
1) serious vehicular accidents & deaths are way way down
2) flu deaths & serious complications have decreased tremendously
3) C-19 ill health & deaths are far less due to the lockdowns
4) likewise probably other communicable diseases (e.g. tuberculosis, HIV) have been greatly reduced by the extreme safety measures in place
5) street crimes have probably been highly reduced.
6) families have been able to spend more time together enjoying each others company while free from the slavery of that 4 letter word "work" that the vast majority hate. Giving more time for quality of life activities like sex & various entertainments.
7) abortions (child murder) are probably down.
http://www.therxforum.com/showthread...1#post13211637
Many kids & young people's lives have already been saved due to the worldwide lockdowns.
Because motor vehicle accident deaths are the #1 leading worldwide cause of death in such.
"Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for U.S. teens."
https://www.google.com/search?q=lead...hrome&ie=UTF-8
"Each year, 1.35 million people are killed on roadways around the world.4
"...Road traffic injuries are estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death globally for all age groups and the leading cause of death for children and young people 5–29 years of age. More people now die in road traffic crashes than from HIV/AIDS.4"
https://www.cdc.gov/injury/features/...nd%20cyclists.
As for "trillions in damage", there would have been huge economic damage with or without the shutdowns. Without shutdowns millions more people get ill, hospitalized, suffer long term ill health & death leading to employees being absent from work, businesses shutdown anyway, & in many cases for much longer, etc.
Nice one on the use of the new Alt Right quote.You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. The fact is that the survival rate of corona is 99.97% for anyone under 50. For a 74 year old man like Trump the survival rate is 96%
Nature.com is a trusted science source. Presumably this is what the 'stable genius' referred to as should you.
The coronavirus is most deadly if you are older and male — new data reveal the risks
A slew of detailed studies has now quantified the increased risk the virus poses to older people, men, and other groups.
Stick to the argument about the law of large numbers. That is an issue, but there is no way around it unfortunately.
MrUnknown the number of 99.97% or whatever the new survival rate (overall survivor rate) the "Stable Genius" crowd like to quote for the virus is a wrong statement.
Now go and re read what he wrote to learn what fact he was posting wrongly. Again Survival rate currently for the virus is not 99.7%, or 99.97%, or 99.99% that gets quoted often by some
With all due respect, do you propose that humans go into a perpetual hard lockdown just to prevent motor vehicle accidents? Even when things (hopefully) get better? Because that's what it sounds like. It is great that you are happy about the fewer motor vehicle accidents. It is and I'm not being sarcastic. But you do realize that you can't keep cars off of the road forever, right?
In fact, I think we might see more cars on the road eventually. I already know that some people who used to take the TTC are now opting to drive (I think car sales are even going up but I'm not certain). With Covid-19, many feel safer in their own vehicles than on the filthy TTC. As others have said, public transit may be one of the real culprits in the spread of Covid and NOT necessarily the restaurants/bars and gyms where most were adhering to strict protocols and contact tracing. There is no contract tracing on the TTC, at grocery stores, etc. And I've seen people not wearing masks on/in both places. I went to IKEA about a month ago... it was very busy and I saw a few people not wearing masks. And again, there is zero contact tracing. So why is IKEA completely open for business and restaurants and gyms that were very strictly following the rules are closed?
But I digress, (went off on a little tangent there, lol) one has to at least acknowledge that some important procedures, cancer screenings, etc. were being delayed. And many still are due to the backlog. Is it okay for some of these people to die? Maybe they're not dead right now but we might very well see a rise in deaths that are unrelated to Covid in the coming months/years. That's what these doctors and scientists are trying to argue.
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Restaurants/bars consistenty account for 30% and sometimes over 40% of the transmissions. Restaurants/bars/entertainment venues accounted for 44% of outbreaks from September 20-26th, a report from Toronto Public Health on October 7 shows that still account for 34% of Coroanvirus outbreaks
I have no idea who these other posters are here that have said public transit is the real culprit but the fact that all people are wearing masks on public transit significantly reduces ones exposure to the Coronavirus, where sitting at a restaurant or bar for a long duration of period, removing your mask for long duration of periods or almost all the time while sitting at your table increases your exposure to the Coronavirus, as well there is the other extremely important fact "the alcohol element" which already has significant sceintific data behind it.
That is why restaurants/bars/adult entertainment venus are at a higher risk of transmission than your local IKEA or grocery store.
But how do they (or anyone for that matter) know that they contracted Covid at the restaurant? A person could contract it at the grocery store or elsewhere and then go to a restaurant. Or they catch it on the ttc. Or they catch it in a taxi on the way home from the restaurant. My point is that it is impossible to pinpoint the exact place and time of transmission.
And a lot of people are NOT wearing masks on the TTC. Trust me. Or they have them pulled down their face which is useless. And what about the poles etc. that people touch on the subway?
And when I went to IKEA it was almost shoulder to shoulder busy.
The (very few) restaurants that I went to, people were practicing social distancing and I saw no drunk people. Maybe in the busy bars downtown but I wouldn't know about those.
A nice quiet place like Barbarien's (who were strictly following the rules) shouldn't be punished right now. Or small neighbourhood breakfast diners that were obeying the rules.
And a lot of people are NOT wearing masks on the TTC. Trust me. Or they have them pulled down their face which is useless. And what about the poles etc. that people touch on the subway?
And when I went to IKEA it was almost shoulder to shoulder busy.
The (very few) restaurants that I went to, people were practicing social distancing and I saw no drunk people. Maybe in the busy bars downtown but I wouldn't know about those.
A nice quiet place like Barbarien's (who were strictly following the rules) shouldn't be punished right now. Or small neighbourhood breakfast diners that were obeying the rules.
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It's not impossible to understand where it was contracted, that's contact tracing working the way it's meant to be.
Let me repeat it again so everyone understands.
Facts are restaurants/bars/adult entertainment are at a higher risk of transmission than your local IKEA or grocery store, there is enough scientific data from around the world to prove this and the same has been seen in Ontario with the scientific data being the same. Understanding how the virus works explains all of this.
Facts are restaurants/bars in Ontario since re openings have consistenty accounted for roughly 30% to over 40% of the transmissions and that % represents a significant threat to the possible exposure and the spread of the Coronavirus.
I love my restaurants food & drink and pre COVID I was out a few times a week, but there is no way I would step inside a single one at this time, I haven't been since early March, the facts are you are significantly at a higher risk of exposure to the virus when in contact with people for longer durations of time.
The government can not go around and check every single one of the 1000's of restaurant/bar/establishments in Ontario and see which ones are following all the guidelines, and which one hasn't had any outbreaks then keep those open. It would be extremely time consuming and would take months to complete, compounding the spread of the virus in that time, and they simply do not have the manpower to be able to.
So yes the good restaurant's who were following all the guidelines and had no outbreaks will be punished as well but there is no other option when at an industry level they are vulnerable to the spread of virus.
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One of the problems for restaurants/bars are people go on benders when out eating and drinking in the city. I certainly used to do it myself pre COVID, going to multiple establishments in one night, and people are still doing so. Which I am sure was calculated in the decision making.But how do they (or anyone for that matter) know that they contracted Covid at the restaurant? A person could contract it at the grocery store or elsewhere and then go to a restaurant. Or they catch it on the ttc. Or they catch it in a taxi on the way home from the restaurant. My point is that it is impossible to pinpoint the exact place and time of transmission.
And a lot of people are NOT wearing masks on the TTC. Trust me. Or they have them pulled down their face which is useless. And what about the poles etc. that people touch on the subway?
And when I went to IKEA it was almost shoulder to shoulder busy.
The (very few) restaurants that I went to, people were practicing social distancing and I saw no drunk people. Maybe in the busy bars downtown but I wouldn't know about those.
A nice quiet place like Barbarien's (who were strictly following the rules) shouldn't be punished right now.
I don't know how many people I've seen posting on their social media being out for dinner with a group, heading to another venue for drinks and then meeting other people at a different establishment.
Not only do those places represent a significant higher exposure to the virus but these careless behaviours by a small yet significant % of the population compounds the threat.
Certainly not. Hard lockdowns had multiple other benefits, were never meant to last forever & generally ended months ago. Though something should be done to reduce the accidents, injuries & deaths via vehicle accidents.
When i was a teen taking the drivers' test for the 3rd or 4th time, since i had failed all the previous attempts, the guy testing me said he really shouldn't pass me but he did anyway. Soon thereafter i proceeded to get into multiple serious accidents.
Personally i'd suggest not getting in death traps. You're safer from a serious accident in public transit or walking or flying or with an experienced professional sober driver (e.g. taxi driver) with a long standing record of safe driving.
With my mode of transportation i have a choice & can protect myself by avoiding cars (death traps). OTOH with the C-19 virus it's more difficult to avoid people who choose to act unsafely & put others at risk.
If others want to take the risk of using cars, that's up to them. Hopefully their choice will not result in those that didn't have a choice (e.g. children) being killed.
There are multiple cities that are looking into or are reducing cars in their cities:
cities look to reduce cars - Google Zoeken
www.google.com
With the arrival of a vaccine, mass vaccinations, & C-19 becoming less dangerous, life would return towards normal again.
Mass transit would be safer if people wear masks & stay 6 feet apart from others.
It is NOT contact tracing the way it is meant to be because only certain places (like restaurants, bars, and gyms) are asked to do it. Every other public place has ZERO contact tracing.
A person can go to the mall and go in different stores, pick up a coffee on the way out, then stop at the grocery store, then to the dry cleaner...Then go home.
Then take the subway and go to the bar that night. The bar is the ONLY place that took his info because of contact tracing. Therefore, he must have contracted it at the bar!
It is a very flawed system and a half-assed attempt at contact tracing because it is not consistent i.e. it is NOT BEING DONE AT ALL in a LOT of places.
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There is more elements to contact tracing than just finding out who may have been in contact with you and who you may have been in contact, there is also the element of where it happened as well as the further steps taken or the businesses that came after, as well there is also the important element of when.
All of that information (who, where, when) combined together and recorded can let those who are contact tracing know where, when and who you were in contact with for future references and positive tests so they can understand where the future positive tests came from.
