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Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria

wilbur

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Maybe in the altered reality state Fuji resides in; or in Rand McNally (where they wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people!)
It might be worth asking Fuji to back up that statement with something other than his opinion.....any reply will be comedy GOLD!
The matter of whether Turkey or Russia can win a war against each other won't be determined by comparing weapons systems stats in Janes' publications. Europe doesn't want to be dragged into a war near its borders, and Russia has the advantage of proximity with Turkey. Turkey can't match Russia's sheer massive military infrastructure and modern weapons without dragging NATO into such a potential conflict.

Turkey would like to draw the rest of NATO with it in its quest for regional control. The danger that quite a few NATO countries are realising is that escalation of the conflict would lead to the use of nuclear weapons, as both sides have stated (US and Russia) that nuclear weapons will be used in order to stave off defeat. The US abrogated the ABM treaty with Russia back in 2001 and changed its doctrine from retaliatory to offensive first strike. Either side would start using small tactical nukes, but history has shown that this would soon escalate into a full scale transcontinental nuclear exchange.

Hollande of France is reaching out to Putin, but the fool Cameron still insists on commencing air strikes in Syria without coordination with Russia and Syria, under the pretext of attacking ISIS, but while still insisting that Assad must go, which is the real reason Cameron wants to go into Syria. Cameron is the latest version of US puppy dog Blair, expending his country's assets (material and human) in the service of a foreign power (US).
 

Titalian

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The Kremlin is coming down on Turkey in the form of serious sanctions.
 

Titalian

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This is almost hilarious. Two economic basketcases imposing sanctions on each other.
I wouldn't describe Russia as an economic basketcase, not with Putin a very formidable leader in power. You want to talk about basketcase countries, just take a good look at what is going on in the US internally, every second week there is mass murders.
 

wilbur

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This is almost hilarious. Two economic basketcases imposing sanctions on each other.
An important (Russian supplied) gas deal between Russia and Turkey is going down the drain. Turkey was going to be a major hub for Southern European gas distribution.

There are hundreds of thousands of Russian tourists in Turkey, so Turkish beaches are going to be somewhat deserted for a while.

Russia has little sovereign debt (US has over 17 trillion dollars worth). It does have significant commercial debt, but if Russian companies default, it's the European banks that are going to go broke.
 

seth gecko

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Turkey was in the wrong shooting down the Russian plane; Turkey knows it, NATO knows it hence not backing Turkey, and Russia knows all of that (not forgetting NATO's response back in 2012 when that Turkish plane was shot down by Syria).
Russia is in the drivers seat for the moment; they'll flex a little muscle economically for the short term, Turkey will make reparations, possibly even apologize, and the world will go on as is.
 

seth gecko

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An important (Russian supplied) gas deal between Russia and Turkey is going down the drain. Turkey was going to be a major hub for Southern European gas distribution.

There are hundreds of thousands of Russian tourists in Turkey, so Turkish beaches are going to be somewhat deserted for a while.

Russia has little sovereign debt (US has over 17 trillion dollars worth). It does have significant commercial debt, but if Russian companies default, it's the European banks that are going to go broke.
Turkey will probably experience some interruptions of Russian natural gas, due to "pipeline maintenance" issues. Russia will up the PR war, reminding Turkey that, in 2012, Erdogan said "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” after Syria shot down that Turkish jet....... Syria then later apologized to Turkey for the shootdown.
Erdogan has positioned himself as a nationalist leader (like Putin), now he'll either cause his country to literally freeze this winter, or lose face to Putin by apologizing after taking such a tough stand trying to justify the shootdown,,,,,either way, not a good situation for his image.
I doubt Putin created this situation, but he's playing it like Kasparov
 

nottyboi

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Obama is a foreign policy lightweight. He doesn't understand a lot of the US foreign policy being applied because he had no real foreign policy background before he got elected and because being POTUS is an enormous job, needing a lot of his attention in domestic politics.

However, he does sometimes assert himself, such as pushing for the nuclear deal with Iran, which has some in the State Department completely apoplectic.

I believe that his advisors do not tell him the complete story, and sometimes boil it down to good guy/bad guy.

Much of US foreign policy is still conducted by NeoCons, and there are competing interests in the US State Department and even within the White House itself. The most glaring is Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of state for Europe and Eurasian Affairs, the one who organised the Ukrainian coup. She is married to neocon Robert Kagan who co-wrote the Project for an American Century with Paul Wolfowitz when they were working for the American Enterprise Institute under Dick Cheney, head neocon. She was appointed to the State Department by Hillary Clinton, who we can consider a foreign policy neocon, with a large mix of neo-liberalism. Wonder why Obama didn't appoint her again during his second term.....(Clinton will be a dangerous person if elected POTUS, as she will seek confrontation with Russia and China, partly just to prove that she's no pushover because she's a woman).

So, at the last G20 meeting, when Putin had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, he showed him aerial pictures of the tanker truck assembly areas in Eastern Syria and asked him why the USAF had been ignoring these. A short time later, the US began bombing those hundreds of tanker trucks. Someone in high up in the US government power structure had directed the USAF to ignore these, obviously because keeping up funding for ISIS served the policy interests of leading factions within the White House and/or the State Department, but without Obama's knowledge: because ISIS and Jabhat Al-Nusra and its affiliates are the biggest threat to the Assad regime that the US neocons want to overthrow, and defeating and ousting Assad is a bigger goal than defeating ISIS. Plus, Erdogan's son Bilal personally profits from those oil sales.

Turkey has been involved in Syria up to their necks. Seymour Hirsh reported that it was Turkish Intelligence that organized the Sarin gas attack in Damascus that was blamed on the Assad regime, just as UN weapons inspectors arrived there. That was the time when Obama had drawn his 'red line', and the US was then ready to bomb the Syrian Armed Forces, and would have done so until the Russians got a deal from Assad to give up his strategic chemical weapons arsenal. Hirsh wrote that Obama was furious at Turkey when he found out the real story. If the US had bombed Syria, Assad's army would then have collapsed against its rivals, who are now almost exclusively Islamic Jihadists. That there are any significant 'moderate' rebels left is a fantasy, as they almost all cooperate or have joined with Al-Qaida affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra. Syria would now be run by Daesh and/or Al-Qaida. It's at that point where Turkey would have intervened in Syria and installed their own puppet as head of state, in order to restore order.... how convenient then for Turkey to then control Syria, and Erdogan's quest to be the new Ottoman ruler.

There is now the growing realisation (Cameron included) that ISIL cannot be defeated without the Syrian Army. That's why there is now the acceptance that Assad can remain for a 'little while' while a democratic process is put together to replace him. Problem is that if Assad runs for democratic office, he will likely be re-elected by the Christian, Alawite and other minorities that he has been protecting, and by Sunnis (most of his army is Sunni) who want to preserve Syria's secular way of life. The Syrian Opposition in exile never got its act together, and only represents paid off stooges who hang around foreign 5 star hotels.
yup that is the way I see things. If Assad is removed there will be a bloodbath of slaughter in Syria even worse then what we see today as the Sunnis wipe out all others. Frankly, I think Bashar Assad has been tainted with the history of his father. I actually think he is Syrias best hope. The guy is a western educated doctor that never expected to be president of Syria until his brother was killed. I think it is a HUGE mistake to remove him. Assisting him in implementing a new constitution would be a much better direction. Ukraine was 100% a western coup. 4-5 years from now the Ukrainians will realize just how badly they got duped into fucking themselves
 

nottyboi

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Another data point that proves this, is that the US warned the ISIS truck drivers before they were bombed, allowed them ample time to leave the trucks with leaflet warnings and then only destroyed 1/3 of the trucks. What a FARCE. As if the USAF does not have the capacity to destroy a lousy 300 trucks. So they still have 2/3 of the trucks they could disperse into hiding, and most of the drivers!!! OMG the blatant pandering to ISIS is really quite breathtaking. They could have sent 5 A-10s and 2 spectres to lay waste to all of that, or a couple of F-15Es with CBUs would have cleaned the slate.
 
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nottyboi

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I think it is a mistake to consider Turkey a country that is completely controlled by Erdogan. He has sought a meeting with Putin and I think a secret meeting will happen. But Putin cannot accept the meeting officially. Evidence of the meeting happening will be a softening of Russias stance towards Turkey. I think the shootdown was arranged by pro western interests in Turkey that want to drive Russia and Turkey apart. Especially in regard to the natural gas transport deals between the two countries to deliver Russian gas to the European market.

Turkey was in the wrong shooting down the Russian plane; Turkey knows it, NATO knows it hence not backing Turkey, and Russia knows all of that (not forgetting NATO's response back in 2012 when that Turkish plane was shot down by Syria).
Russia is in the drivers seat for the moment; they'll flex a little muscle economically for the short term, Turkey will make reparations, possibly even apologize, and the world will go on as is.
 

Polaris

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There is now the growing realisation (Cameron included) that ISIL cannot be defeated without the Syrian Army. That's why there is now the acceptance that Assad can remain for a 'little while' while a democratic process is put together to replace him. Problem is that if Assad runs for democratic office, he will likely be re-elected by the Christian, Alawite and other minorities that he has been protecting, and by Sunnis (most of his army is Sunni) who want to preserve Syria's secular way of life. The Syrian Opposition in exile never got its act together, and only represents paid off stooges who hang around foreign 5 star hotels.
At this stage, everything is propaganda.

This is the reality it seems to me, which of course could be criticized as propaganda, but that's war.

Daesh will not be defeated. Daesh is here to stay. Full stop.

Suppose everything falls into place for Putin. His close in air support, with Assad's army drives ISIL out of Syria. But remember it is the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria aka ISIS. That means if Putin wins in Syria, Daesh still gets to stay in Iraq.

Does not seem like this war will end anytime soon.

Then Turkey attacks, shooting down a Russian jet. This means Turkey is on the side of ... they won't even say.

No one is on the same page. Wonder how things will get done.

Wonder how they will avoid World War 3.

Justin Trudeau looks like fucking genius for pulling those warplanes out when he did. At least he had the good sense to sense that things are that fucked up. Don't touch it.
 

seth gecko

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I think it is a mistake to consider Turkey a country that is completely controlled by Erdogan. He has sought a meeting with Putin and I think a secret meeting will happen. But Putin cannot accept the meeting officially. Evidence of the meeting happening will be a softening of Russias stance towards Turkey. I think the shootdown was arranged by pro western interests in Turkey that want to drive Russia and Turkey apart. Especially in regard to the natural gas transport deals between the two countries to deliver Russian gas to the European market.
Putin is in a pretty good place that most politicians would drool over; he doesn't have to worry much about re-election, so he can say & do pretty much what needs to be said & done, and despite pretty much being a dictator, his people love him. Putin is concerned about the islamization of Turkey under Erdogan (said so publicly a day or so ago) and now has the opportunity to embarrass Erdogan domestically; either eat crow, or put Turkey in the freezer this winter (figuratively, not literally, as Russia decreases the gas supply). I doubt anyone arranged the shootdown; military jets cross int'l borders all the time, and there is an established protocol to handle it......despite what some stooges on this forum may think, you don't just blast the plane out of the sky because he crossed into your airspace. Turkey made a SERIOUS error and compounded it by 1st playing the victim & 2nd not admitting their mistake and apologizing, That 2nd step was for Erdogans domestic audience; he's put himself and his party in a bind that Putin is all too happy to exploit.
 

Polaris

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Putin is in a pretty good place that most politicians would drool over; he doesn't have to worry much about re-election, so he can say & do pretty much what needs to be said & done, and despite pretty much being a dictator, his people love him.
Putin's biggest problem is that he is militarily over extended.

If NATO joins the fight in the Syrian Turkish border, NATO will win. Of course, no one knows what Putin will do if NATO attacks Russian military in Syria. For instance, if Russia is at war with NATO, maybe Russia invades Poland again. Putin did say back during the Ukraine battles that he could take Warsaw by the weekend. Just to strengthen bargaining position.
 

seth gecko

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Nov 2, 2003
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At this stage, everything is propaganda.

This is the reality it seems to me, which of course could be criticized as propaganda, but that's war.

Daesh will not be defeated. Daesh is here to stay. Full stop.

Suppose everything falls into place for Putin. His close in air support, with Assad's army drives ISIL out of Syria. But remember it is the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria aka ISIS. That means if Putin wins in Syria, Daesh still gets to stay in Iraq.

Does not seem like this war will end anytime soon.

Then Turkey attacks, shooting down a Russian jet. This means Turkey is on the side of ... they won't even say.

No one is on the same page. Wonder how things will get done.

Wonder how they will avoid World War 3.

Justin Trudeau looks like fucking genius for pulling those warplanes out when he did. At least he had the good sense to sense that things are that fucked up. Don't touch it.
Thus far the most effective Daesh-killers are the Iranians and Kurds running around Iraq & Syria; our warplanes were a high-profile, high cost, low-risk & low yield contribution and can easily be replaced by the Iowa National Guard.
Soon, there will be a significant number of CSOR running around Iraq, and probably Syria, training the Kurds. Turkey is about as reliable an ally against Daesh in the Levant as Pakistan is against the Taliban (Afghan or Pakistani version), that is to say, not reliable in the slightest.
One has to stop and wonder what the reaction to this decision will be if a Turkish airstrike targeting Kurdish fighters takes out a few boys from Petawawa who may have been just doing their job (training Kurdish fighters). Or if its learned that Canucks are working alongside IRGC (again, actually). The Liberals made the right call pulling the planes and contributing a different (IMO, better) asset, but they could pay a HUGE political cost at home for it.....but again, I'll emphasis, it was the right move.
Daesh will be popping up even bigger and better in Libya pretty damn soon....they are already there following the fiasco created by western involvement from a few years back
 

nottyboi

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Putin is in a pretty good place that most politicians would drool over; he doesn't have to worry much about re-election, so he can say & do pretty much what needs to be said & done, and despite pretty much being a dictator, his people love him. Putin is concerned about the islamization of Turkey under Erdogan (said so publicly a day or so ago) and now has the opportunity to embarrass Erdogan domestically; either eat crow, or put Turkey in the freezer this winter (figuratively, not literally, as Russia decreases the gas supply). I doubt anyone arranged the shootdown; military jets cross int'l borders all the time, and there is an established protocol to handle it......despite what some stooges on this forum may think, you don't just blast the plane out of the sky because he crossed into your airspace. Turkey made a SERIOUS error and compounded it by 1st playing the victim & 2nd not admitting their mistake and apologizing, That 2nd step was for Erdogans domestic audience; he's put himself and his party in a bind that Putin is all too happy to exploit.
I suspect some anti-Erdogan elements arranged the shootdown in concert with the CIA. As Putin pointed out the Americans knew exactly where the Russians planes were gonna be. Someone in the US govt arranged for someone in Turkey to blow that plane out of the sky to drive Russia and Turkey apart. Erdogan cannot publicly say he is not 100% in control of his military, ergo the bravado. But at the same time he is seeking a meeting with Putin to explain his predicament. I think the meet will happen in secret.
 

seth gecko

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Nov 2, 2003
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Putin's biggest problem is that he is militarily over extended.

If NATO joins the fight in the Syrian Turkish border, NATO will win. Of course, no one knows what Putin will do if NATO attacks Russian military in Syria. For instance, if Russia is at war with NATO, maybe Russia invades Poland again. Putin did say back during the Ukraine battles that he could take Warsaw by the weekend. Just to strengthen bargaining position.
NATO will NOT intervene on Turkeys behalf or at their request in this beef with Russia & that's been made clear to Turkey, and its been obvious to Russia within a few seconds of their plane being shot down.
Turkey royally screwed up and it s their problem to deal with.
Until the Friday 13th Paris attacks, the wests contribution towards fighting Daesh in Iraq/Syria was really just a big photo-op. NATOs been hesitant to get involved in Syria because of its similarities to Libya, which despite what a few doofuses on this board may think, was NOT considered a very positive outcome by & for NATO (that's NATO's own assessment, and Obama called it his biggest foreign policy failure or something along those lines a few years ago).
France is working hard now to patch together a coalition so as to actually do something against Daesh other than create news bites, and they are courting Russia (who don't really need much convincing). NATO is a lame duck in this scenario
 

nottyboi

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Thus far the most effective Daesh-killers are the Iranians and Kurds running around Iraq & Syria; our warplanes were a high-profile, high cost, low-risk & low yield contribution and can easily be replaced by the Iowa National Guard.
Soon, there will be a significant number of CSOR running around Iraq, and probably Syria, training the Kurds. Turkey is about as reliable an ally against Daesh in the Levant as Pakistan is against the Taliban (Afghan or Pakistani version), that is to say, not reliable in the slightest.
One has to stop and wonder what the reaction to this decision will be if a Turkish airstrike targeting Kurdish fighters takes out a few boys from Petawawa who may have been just doing their job (training Kurdish fighters). Or if its learned that Canucks are working alongside IRGC (again, actually). The Liberals made the right call pulling the planes and contributing a different (IMO, better) asset, but they could pay a HUGE political cost at home for it.....but again, I'll emphasis, it was the right move.
Daesh will be popping up even bigger and better in Libya pretty damn soon....they are already there following the fiasco created by western involvement from a few years back
It is perhaps ironic that Canadian soldiers would be protected by Russian S400 missiles.
 

wilbur

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Thus far the most effective Daesh-killers are the Iranians and Kurds running around Iraq & Syria
The only ground force presently engaged that can defeat ISIS is the Syrian Arab Army. It can do that as long as Assad remains in power. Assad goes and the army will fall apart, and ISIS will take control.

I believe that it's Erdogan's plan that, when this happens, and a power vacuum results from the fall of Assad, the Turkish army will swoop in, destroy ISIS, install a puppet in Damascus, and Erdogan can become the Sultan of a new Ottoman Empire.

Only problem is that Russia is in there already. Turkey got frustrated at this, and is now seeing its border with Syria closed by the Kurds (that's why Turkey has been bombing them, our allies!!), and the last bit north of Aleppo is going to fall against the onslaught of the Syrian Army supported by the Russian Air Force, along with allies Hezbollah, Iranian 'advisors', and the motley crew of various Syrian militias, Christians included.
 

wilbur

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I suspect some anti-Erdogan elements arranged the shootdown in concert with the CIA. As Putin pointed out the Americans knew exactly where the Russians planes were gonna be. Someone in the US govt arranged for someone in Turkey to blow that plane out of the sky to drive Russia and Turkey apart. Erdogan cannot publicly say he is not 100% in control of his military, ergo the bravado. But at the same time he is seeking a meeting with Putin to explain his predicament. I think the meet will happen in secret.
The real issue is whether Obama has real control over the various US agencies active in the region. There are differing vewpoints throughout the CIA, the State Department, the Pentagon, and even within the White House itself. What he's being briefed on may be a very simplistic good guy/bad guy scenario. He could not have been aware of the plotting Victoria Nuland was up to that led to the coup in Ukraine. He was not aware that the Sarin gas attack in Damascus, that was blamed on Assad was in reality the work of Turkish Intelligence. But Seymour Hirsh reported that he was furious at the Turks (probably prodded by a faction within the US government) when he found out.

The US ambassador killed in Libya was mixed up in transferring weapons and Jihadists from Libya to Syria via Turkey. Was Obama aware? I don't think so. At the time, Hilary Clinton was Secretary of State and it's interesting that Obama didn't reappoint her for his second term of office.
 

wilbur

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Putin's biggest problem is that he is militarily over extended.

If NATO joins the fight in the Syrian Turkish border, NATO will win. Of course, no one knows what Putin will do if NATO attacks Russian military in Syria. For instance, if Russia is at war with NATO, maybe Russia invades Poland again. Putin did say back during the Ukraine battles that he could take Warsaw by the weekend. Just to strengthen bargaining position.
Putin said that he could be in Kiev within a week if he wanted to (which is a given). I don't believe that he mentioned Warsaw, as that would have been seen as a provocation against NATO.
 
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