Turkey downs Russian plane over Syria
- Thread starter Twister
- Start date
Very funny, but prudent. Putin is an old style ruler who believes in good old fashioned objective lessons. He will intensify bombing of the Turkish minions in Syria and the Turks will have to respond- just to maintain credibility. When they do, Putin will teach them a lesson. No reason to worry about Obama. He's a new kind of leader. The kind that does not understand power. Besides, the climate is the real threat...
Well they have a choice, stay and accept the Syrian govt...or leave. A great number of Palis chose to leave. But the rest are trapped in an Israeli controlled mega prison. I did not say they SHOULD leave, I said they CAN leave. But expecting annexation from the motherland has risks, I do not see much history of oppression of these Turkmen in Syria. As far as I can tell they were pretty much left alone until they became radicalized. If the Pali tunnels were so big there would not be acute shortages there. So what if Hamas refuses peace. No one recognizes them as legit. The Israelis can negotiate a deal with Fatah and then work to implement it. Hamas is just an excuse installed by Israel. The cluster bomb story is not from a legit source as the only article I found says they hit AROUND the camps. If you consider that Russia is trying t destroy masses of oil trucks, the cluster bomb is really a fine weapon to use... :thumb:
So they fired a missile into a sovereign nation... hmm and you bitch about the Pali fireworks show?
Once Russia attacked Turkey from that territory, Turkey had an absolute right of self defence to respond, back into the territory of the attacker as necessary. The law of armed conflict is indisputable on this point.
Whether Turkey should have exercised its right or, fire political reasons, chosen not to exercise its right, is a different question.
I note that you still have not condemned the Russian attack on Turkmen civilians nor have you condemned the Russian invasion of Turkish sovereign territory.
Specifically the choice these civilians face is stay and be killed by Russian war criminals or flee from their homes.
But nice try putting lipstick on the ethnic cleansing pig
Thanks for conceding that Israel does not have complete control over the border. In answer to your question, Hamas prioritizes shipping weapons over helping civilians.
The "so what" is that you are a hypocrite, you claimed that attacks on the Turkmen militias were OK, but attacking Hamas was not OK, because you claimed the Palestinians had conditions for peace. Now you are admitting that they don't.
What is clear is that the only principle you apply is "Russia good, Israel bad".
You are a sycophant, and a hypocrite.
That is like saying that Assad could just go negotiate with the Free Syrian Army, which controls all of nothing, and then " just work to implement it", ignoring ISIS, which actually has full real military control over the territory.
Last time Fatah tried to tell Hamas what to do, Hamas just threw them off the roof tops.
Cluster bombing around refugee camps is a war crime.
Well, this thread deteriorated pretty fast, but heres something to ponder:
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Same applies now to this incident with the Russian plane; you first warn them off, if that gets no response you scramble your jets and make visual contact; you don't immediately put a missile up their tailpipe (or, as Putin calls it "stab them in the back").
The plane might have crossed into your airspace for any number of reason, including pilot distress, equipment malfunction, etc.......the normal response is NOT come out shooting, and Turkey full well knows this.
Turkey messed this up.
Expect to see a few Turkish Albays' get a dressing down from Brussels (but then get decorations from Ankara). NATO won't back Turkey on this.
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That's Turkish PM Davutoglu a few years ago when Syria shot down a Turkish jet they claimed was in their airspace. And Davutoglu is correct; there is an accepted protocol to deal with these types of incursions, because after all, most normal folks DON'T want an escalation of hostilities (there are a few obvious exceptions right here in this thread, though).
Same applies now to this incident with the Russian plane; you first warn them off, if that gets no response you scramble your jets and make visual contact; you don't immediately put a missile up their tailpipe (or, as Putin calls it "stab them in the back").
The plane might have crossed into your airspace for any number of reason, including pilot distress, equipment malfunction, etc.......the normal response is NOT come out shooting, and Turkey full well knows this.
Turkey messed this up.
Expect to see a few Turkish Albays' get a dressing down from Brussels (but then get decorations from Ankara). NATO won't back Turkey on this.
Turkey had been complaining about the Russian operations for days, and in fact had complained about the Russian incursions to the UN.
Any claim that Turkey hadn't already tried soft channels is bull pucky.
The Russians arrogantly ignored the many Turkish objections figuring that as the superpower they think they are they don't need to listen to objections.
It took a lot of Russian arrogance to get to point of a shootdown.
Any claim that Turkey hadn't already tried soft channels is bull pucky.
The Russians arrogantly ignored the many Turkish objections figuring that as the superpower they think they are they don't need to listen to objections.
It took a lot of Russian arrogance to get to point of a shootdown.
Greece sent a note of support to Russia. Greece has been complaining for a long time that Turkey violates its airspace all the time: 1500 times this year. Yet, Greece doesn't shoot down those airplanes as that would be an unfriendly act, despite that Turkey's constant incursions over what is deemed disputed territory is in itself an unfriendly act.
Plus, Turkey routinely violates sovereign Syrian and Iraqi airspace when they bomb the Kurds in both of those countries.
So here you have the pot calling the kettle black.
Iraq now cooperates with Russia, as there is now a joint command centre in Baghdad where they share intelligence and coordinate operations. Iran and Syria are also part of this. It would be interesting if Iraq requested from Russia protection from these incursions by way of S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems. The US would be in a quandary, split between their alliance Iraqis, as well as with the Kurds, the only credible US allied ground based force making any gains against ISIS, and their NATO partners Turkey whom they lease from them the strategic airbase at Incirlik. It would be ironic that the US, that has been buying Russian combat helicopters and other weapons for the Iraqi armed forces, would go the next step and finance the deployment of Russian S-400 missile batteries against Turkish incursions.
Erdogan (not necessarily the Turkish people) is furious that Putin convinced Obama to start bombing the hundreds of tanker trucks that moved oil from Syria to Turkey by showing him aerial pictures of these trucks at assembly areas in Eastern Syria. There is no way that the Turkish authorities could be unaware of the hundreds of the tanker trucks entering Turkey with full loads of oil. You can't claim that these enter through the back roads. The Kurds are closing the gap in the Turkish-Syrian border, and at the same time, the Syrian Army with the help of the Russian Air Force (plus Hezbollah and various Shiite militias) are destroying the so-called 'moderate rebels' (all allied and operating closely with Al-Qaida affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra, but with a significant proportioin of Turkmen-resembling Chechens and Uighurs) north of Aleppo towards the Turkish border.
Erdogan is furious because his son Bilal is neck deep into buying this cheap oil and selling it on the open market. The Turkmen that Erdogan is on about are used as a pretext to 'defend' their kin in that part of Syria and open up a no-fly zone, which would be very convenient for preventing the Kurds from closing up the entire Syria-Turkish border, and thereby denying passage into Turkey, of those tanker trucks, and in the other direction for keeping up the supply of terrorists and their weapons to ISIS in Syria.
I don't see any evidence of significant Turkman casualties. I heard a lot of them are Turkish special forces, and if they are facilitating ISIS operations (sure as hell looks like it and confirmed by Bild in Germany) then they are 100% legit targest and Putin is doing us all a favor. You seem very supportive of ISIS. Why is that? Obama has told so many lies, they all lie, get used to it.
Lets face it, there is NO WAY in Hades that the US was unaware of those tanker trucks. Either someone kept it from Obama or he was shamed into attacking them. ZERO chance they knew nothing about them.
Russia, Iran and Syria have always been on friendly terms. No surprise that Iraq (Shiite majority) has joined them. The forces of Russia, Iran, Syria and Iraq are allied against ISIS and the Iraqi Sunnis (and maybe Turkey). No way NATO should shed an ounce of blood for Turkey.
Looks like the U.S. has lost Iraq just like they lost Iran in 1978 and almost lost Egypt in 2012.
Well there is not been any attack on Turkman civilians as far as I can see, and there is no invasion of Turkish territory if not NATO would be involved.. so there is nothing to condemn. All Russia is trying to do is open the corridor along the Turkish border so the Syrian govt can regain control of their border with Turkey. If the Turkmen oppose that then they will be wiped out.
I know arabs have some sort of morality, but it is a strange one. If anything I expect Israelis to have a morality that is much closer to the western norm, yet they behave like fucking savages. But I suppose the USA does as well, so whatever..
Well the Germans certainly thought that. Russia can mine Turkeys ports, and pretty much attack Turkey with impunity using cruise missiles. Once all the Turkish runways are bombed out they will be pretty much sitting ducks. Not to mention the tactical nukes the Russians have as a failsafe. Turkeys F-16s are all pretty old and have not been updated. They cannot really take on the more advanced Russian fighters. Turkey has withdrawn its fighters from Syria, the USA, French and Israel now have to inform Russia where they plan to attack to avoid an S400 attack. The Turkish shoot down was such a perfect pretext for S400 deployment, I really think Putin baited the Turks. Russia now has control of most Syrian airspace. Thanks Turkey!!!
Obama is a foreign policy lightweight. He doesn't understand a lot of the US foreign policy being applied because he had no real foreign policy background before he got elected and because being POTUS is an enormous job, needing a lot of his attention in domestic politics.
However, he does sometimes assert himself, such as pushing for the nuclear deal with Iran, which has some in the State Department completely apoplectic.
I believe that his advisors do not tell him the complete story, and sometimes boil it down to good guy/bad guy.
Much of US foreign policy is still conducted by NeoCons, and there are competing interests in the US State Department and even within the White House itself. The most glaring is Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of state for Europe and Eurasian Affairs, the one who organised the Ukrainian coup. She is married to neocon Robert Kagan who co-wrote the Project for an American Century with Paul Wolfowitz when they were working for the American Enterprise Institute under Dick Cheney, head neocon. She was appointed to the State Department by Hillary Clinton, who we can consider a foreign policy neocon, with a large mix of neo-liberalism. Wonder why Obama didn't appoint her again during his second term.....(Clinton will be a dangerous person if elected POTUS, as she will seek confrontation with Russia and China, partly just to prove that she's no pushover because she's a woman).
So, at the last G20 meeting, when Putin had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, he showed him aerial pictures of the tanker truck assembly areas in Eastern Syria and asked him why the USAF had been ignoring these. A short time later, the US began bombing those hundreds of tanker trucks. Someone in high up in the US government power structure had directed the USAF to ignore these, obviously because keeping up funding for ISIS served the policy interests of leading factions within the White House and/or the State Department, but without Obama's knowledge: because ISIS and Jabhat Al-Nusra and its affiliates are the biggest threat to the Assad regime that the US neocons want to overthrow, and defeating and ousting Assad is a bigger goal than defeating ISIS. Plus, Erdogan's son Bilal personally profits from those oil sales.
Turkey has been involved in Syria up to their necks. Seymour Hirsh reported that it was Turkish Intelligence that organized the Sarin gas attack in Damascus that was blamed on the Assad regime, just as UN weapons inspectors arrived there. That was the time when Obama had drawn his 'red line', and the US was then ready to bomb the Syrian Armed Forces, and would have done so until the Russians got a deal from Assad to give up his strategic chemical weapons arsenal. Hirsh wrote that Obama was furious at Turkey when he found out the real story. If the US had bombed Syria, Assad's army would then have collapsed against its rivals, who are now almost exclusively Islamic Jihadists. That there are any significant 'moderate' rebels left is a fantasy, as they almost all cooperate or have joined with Al-Qaida affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra. Syria would now be run by Daesh and/or Al-Qaida. It's at that point where Turkey would have intervened in Syria and installed their own puppet as head of state, in order to restore order.... how convenient then for Turkey to then control Syria, and Erdogan's quest to be the new Ottoman ruler.
There is now the growing realisation (Cameron included) that ISIL cannot be defeated without the Syrian Army. That's why there is now the acceptance that Assad can remain for a 'little while' while a democratic process is put together to replace him. Problem is that if Assad runs for democratic office, he will likely be re-elected by the Christian, Alawite and other minorities that he has been protecting, and by Sunnis (most of his army is Sunni) who want to preserve Syria's secular way of life. The Syrian Opposition in exile never got its act together, and only represents paid off stooges who hang around foreign 5 star hotels.
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Originally Posted by fujiRussia doesn't have the military muscle to take on Turkey. Turkey isn't Georgia or Ukraine. Turkish military has better weapons then Russia does.
Maybe in the altered reality state Fuji resides in; or in Rand McNally (where they wear hats on their feet and hamburgers eat people!)
It might be worth asking Fuji to back up that statement with something other than his opinion.....any reply will be comedy GOLD!
