Bibi Wins, Two State Solution Dies?

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Moviefan-2

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Frankfooter said:
How did you come to that conclusion after reading that wiki post?
Its really quite the opposite of what they say.
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I came to that conclusion based on the historical reality. The Palestinians were offered more than they could ever hope for but rejected the offers.

If they had got past their Jew hatred and accepted the offers, they would have their own independent state today (and not just some UN hooey about being an ex-officio state).

Frankfooter said:
Here's today's headline that may make you froth at the mouth...
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Far from it -- I burst out laughing when I read that Peanut Boy thinks there are Hamas leaders who are committed to peace.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/carter-says-hamas-leader-committed-to-peace-netanyahu-not/

Thanks for posting that article. That truly made my day.
 
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Frankfooter

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Moviefan-2 said:
I came to that conclusion based on the historical reality. The Palestinians were offered more than they could ever hope for but rejected the offers.
.
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No, Olmert's plan wasn't rejected, they just didn't have time to respond to it before Olmert was kicked out and replaced by Netanyahu and his Likud party charter, which are against the two state solution.

Its too bad, it was close to a deal.
Would you have supported that peace deal, had Olmert not been kicked out for corruption and it come to pass?
 
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fuji

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Frankfooter said:
No, Olmert's plan wasn't rejected, they just didn't have time to respond to it before Olmert was kicked out and replaced by Netanyahu and his Likud party charter, which are against the two state solution.
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Then why haven't they come back and publicly said they would accept Olmert's deal? Particularly when Olmert publicly asked them to. No way in hell Netanyahu could ever have won the recent election fighting a Palestinian "yes". His victory was based in part on his claim that Palestinians only ever say "no".

Abbas could have published an open peace offer and it would instantly have turned the Israeli election into a referendum on whether to answer "yes" with "yes".
 
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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Frankfooter said:
Show us the details on those offers and tell us how good they really were.

...
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The details are everywhere.

Olmert offered the '67 lines with land swaps and a land corridor to Gaza, shared Jerusalem, international jurisdiction over holy sites, settlement of some refugee descendents and compensation for the rest. The offer was completely in line with the Arab League/Saudi plan. Abbas didn't even bother to make a counter proposal, he just walked away.

And Hamas has outright rejected any kind of peace with Israel.
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
No details?
What a surprise.
Why can't you back these claims with documentation?
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Why are you so afraid to actually look? Are you worried that it turns out that the Palestinian leadership are opposed to peace with Israel?
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
How did you come to that conclusion after reading that wiki post?
Its really quite the opposite of what they say.

Here's today's headline that may make you froth at the mouth, speaking of hatred.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/carter-says-hamas-leader-committed-to-peace-netanyahu-not/

Carter goes as far to say he'll meet with Hamas but won't meet with Netanyahu, there's no point since he's not interested in peace.
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I can see Carter sitting in a room covered in posters calling for death to Israel and calling Jews apes and pigs, the Hamas charter open on the desk and the Hamas leadership telling Carter how misunderstood they are.


p.s. There are tons of media statements from Meshaal. From 2014 for example.

Asked point-blank if he would recognize Israel’s right to exist, Meshaal replied, “No.”
www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/h...ands-israel-gaza-occupation-article-1.1882771

Also from 2012
"Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land," he told the crowd on his first visit to Gaza. "We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

If this guy represents 'moderates' within Hamas...

But sure, keep on blaming Israel and ignoring the Palestinians.
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
No, Olmert's plan wasn't rejected, they just didn't have time to respond to it before Olmert ...
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Really, 4 months is too little for the Palestinians to express interest?

Abbas could have expressed interest and asked for time for a counter proposal. He could have agreed in principal and asked for more details. He could have said he was interested in talking more.

Instead he just walked away and stayed away.
 
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Frankfooter

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Moviefan-2 said:
Sure it was.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-rejects-olmert-s-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank-1.251578

http://www.investigativeproject.org/3373/rice-abbas-rejected-olmert-peace-plan#

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/13/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast
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Again.
According to wiki:
The Negotiation Support Unit (NSU) also insisted that Prime Minister Olmert provide them with a copy of the map, which was again denied. In the end, however, Mahmoud Abbas asked for a few days to consider the offer. A day after this meeting, Olmert resigned and Tzipi Livni stepped in as Acting Prime Minister, with Benjamin Netanyahu being elected shortly afterward. Palestinian negotiators said Abbas had forgotten another appointment and postponed the next meeting. Netanyahu thought Olmert had made too many concessions and refused to continue from where the last round of negotiations had left off, preferring to restart the negotiations from the beginning.[26]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers#The_documents

Another peace process ended by Netanyahu.

Its too bad that plan didn't have time to come to be before Olmert was kicked out for corruption and Netanyahu came in.
It probably was the last, best plan for peace and Netanyahu killed it.
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
...
Its too bad that plan didn't have time to come to be before Olmert was kicked out for corruption....
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Wow. Another pile of lies from you. This is becoming quite a habit.

First, Abbas had months to respond. he didn't.

Second, Olmert lost an election. He wasn't kicked out because of corruption. Of course if you were concerned about corruption you would have lots to say about Abbas and the PA (and Hamas isn't any better).
 
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basketcase

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I see you refuse too comment about Meshaal. You claimed he was interested in peace yet his statements show otherwise.
basketcase said:
I can see Carter sitting in a room covered in posters calling for death to Israel and calling Jews apes and pigs, the Hamas charter open on the desk and the Hamas leadership telling Carter how misunderstood they are.


p.s. There are tons of media statements from Meshaal. From 2014 for example.

Asked point-blank if he would recognize Israel’s right to exist, Meshaal replied, “No.”
www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/h...ands-israel-gaza-occupation-article-1.1882771

Also from 2012
"Palestine is ours, from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on an inch of the land," he told the crowd on his first visit to Gaza. "We will never recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/08/hamas-gaza-palestine-khaled-meshaal-israel

If this guy represents 'moderates' within Hamas...

But sure, keep on blaming Israel and ignoring the Palestinians.
Click to expand...
 
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fuji

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Frankfooter

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fuji said:
Why didn't Abbas make a proposal?
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He did in negotiations with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu wouldn't accept all offers.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died
http://www.theweek.co.uk/middle-east/57666/israeli-president-says-netanyahu-torpedoed-peace-deal

Which gets us back on topic.
fuji said:
Netanyahu was elected on a promise not to establish a Palestinian state while he was in office.
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Netanyahu was elected on a promise to block the two state solution from happening as long as he is PM.
 
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basketcase

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Frankfooter said:
He did in negotiations with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu wouldn't accept all offers....
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More flat out lies. What offers did Abbas make? He has never made a proposal. He's agreed to have his guy sit at a table but the Palestinians have never made an offer.

And then there's that whole thing about Hamas. You know, the guys elected to the legislature? If you think a vague comment by Netanyahu is so significant, why do you keep avoiding repeated Hamas statements about destroying Israel and their racist statements about Jews?
 
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fuji

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Frankfooter said:
He did in negotiations with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu wouldn't accept all offers.
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What borders did Abbas counter propose in response to Olmert?

Answer: none.

If Abbas has made a proposal, acceptance or rejection of his proposal would had been an election issue. Again in the recent election Abbas could have made it an election issue by issuing a proposal.

I don't doubt that there have been totally unacceptable proposals: Israel gives up everything, gets nothing, Palestinians rearm and import advanced weapons.

The reality is that Abbas can't sign a peace deal. He doesn't control the guys with the rockets and guns, and they aren't even remotely interested in peace.

Hence Netanyahu is 110% correct when he says current conditiond don't allow for s Palestinian state.

But one of the ways we can see that is in Abbas's inability and unwillingness to make or accept peace offers. He simply can't, so he doesn't.
 
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fuji

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