Bibi Wins, Two State Solution Dies?

[basketcase]

Wrong again.
Netanyahu has confirmed that settlements are land grabs meant to make sure a Palestinian state is near impossible.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKBN0MX0T220150406?sp=true

....

So what did Netanyahu say? All the post says in a reporter's opinion that "in effect".

Jewish home calls for Annexing Area C, or 60% of the West Bank.
Yisrael Beytenu calls for annexing the major settlement blocks.
Yahad calls for annexing all of historic Palestine.

And how many seats did those parties win?
I know. 8 seats, 6 seats, a ZERO seats. 14 out of 120 is hardly significant.

(also a pretty funny that you're discussion party policies considering you didn't care about them when I showed you that the majority of the Israeli parliament supports a two state peace)

Meanwhile the last Palestinian election had Hamas winning their legislature by campaigning on Israel's destruction and the removal of the Jewish presence.

 

[basketcase]

Refusing to answer to this?

...

Speaking of refusal to answer, how come you keep avoiding the fact that Hamas official policy is Israel's destruction and they won a majority in the last Palestinian legislature?

 

[basketcase]

Once you are able to define where are Israel border, ...

You mean when the Israeli-Palestinian peace deal defines the border. Israel has attempted several times but the Palestinians, especially their legislative body refuse to accept peace.

 

[fuji]

No Israeli people aren't opposed to annexing the west bank because they voted for someone who promised not to give up the west bank while he's PM.

Nothing you say is rational or logical.

Voting against allowing Hamastan to be created in the next few years is just the same as voting to annex the west bank?

You are DEMENTED.

 

[basketcase]

No Israeli people aren't opposed to annexing the west bank because they voted for someone who promised not to give up the west bank while he's PM.They are only opposed to annexing is the arab population living there. So Israeli people want the territory without its arab population.

Keep making things up.

Hamas won a majority in the last Palestinian election on a promise to destroy Israel. Netanyahu only got 23%.

 

[Frankfooter]

I support a change in the location of the border to increase security for Israel, eliminating the Tel Aviv "wasp waist", ensuring water sources cannot be cut off by Palestinians, and ensuring that IDF controls militarily strategic strong points in that area and along the Jordan valley.

This SHOULD be achieved through negotiations with the Palestinians, through equitable land swaps exchanging militarily strategic land for equally good land in a less strategic areas.

Since the Palestinians have refused to agree to peace, and since the actual location of the border has NEVER been agreed (the green line is not the border) it seems perfectly reasonable for Israel to act unilaterally to ensure its long term security. Building settlements in strategic locations and surrounding them with a security wall along Israel's preferred border does that.

If you ask why Israel is entitled to control the militarily important strong points and land with high strategic value the answer is that Israel has been the victim of numerous Arab wars of aggression and any final agreement has to resolve concerns that the Arabs will just attack once again after rearming. Keeping militarily strategic ground under Israeli control reduces the probability of another war.

The only problem with that theory is that Israel itself has derailed the peace talks, which makes the talks look like a stalling tactic while they slowly colonize Palestinian land settlement by settlement.

But what you are saying is that you do not support the creation of an autonomous Palestinian state, with controls of its own borders, resources or defence.
What you are supporting sounds suspiciously like turning the West Bank into another Gaza, under the control of Israel.

 

[Moviefan-2]

The only problem with that theory is that Israel itself has derailed the peace talks....

Nonsense.

If the Palestinians had been prepared to accept the co-existence of a Jewish state, a peace deal would have been reached more than 14 years ago.

 

[Frankfooter]

Nonsense.

If the Palestinians had been prepared to accept the co-existence of a Jewish state, a peace deal would have been reached more than 14 years ago.

We went through this before.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.589366
http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/09/22/bill-clinton-netanyahu-killed-the-peace-process/

As Netanyahu's father said of his conditions for peace:

He supports the kind of conditions they would never in the world accept… That’s what I heard from him. Not from me. He put forth the conditions. These conditions, they will never accept them — not even one of them.

And as Netanyahu's former chief of domestic security said, right after that interview:

Netanyahu’s former chief of domestic security, Yuval Diskin, that despite its claims to the contrary, Netanyahu’s government “has no interest in resolving anything with the Palestinians.”

http://world.time.com/2012/05/02/re...of-netanyahus-late-father-influenced-the-son/

 

[basketcase]

The only problem with that theory is that Israel itself has derailed the peace talks,...s own borders, resources or defence.
What you are supporting sounds suspiciously like turning the West Bank into another Gaza, under the control of Israel.

How is that? By on at least 3 occasions making offers which the Palestinians walked away from?

 

[Frankfooter]

How is that? By on at least 3 occasions making offers which the Palestinians walked away from?

Show us the details on those offers and tell us how good they really were.

And then reconcile that with Netanyahu, who's own party charter calls for taking the West Bank and Jordan Valley.

 

[fuji]

The only problem with that theory is that Israel itself has derailed the peace talks,

Nope. Israel is still waiting for Abbas to answer Olmert's fascistic peace offer. Of course what you mean by "derail" is that Israel obviously says "no" to things that are designed to destroy Israel as a Jewish state or enable future Palestinian aggression.

But what you are saying is that you do not support the creation of an autonomous Palestinian state, with controls of its own borders, resources or defence.

Same deal Japan and Germany got after WW2. Allied troops STILL haven't left those countries sixty years later, and they are not permitted to create large militaries.

Of course you don't like that since it prevents extermination of Jews in future, your dream.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Show us the details on those offers and tell us how good they really were.

The details have already been provided to you. In each case, the Palestinians would have attained statehood for more than 90 per cent of the lands.

The quality of the offers wasn't the issue. The offers were rejected because they required the Palestinians to formally recognize the co-existence of a Jewish state, something they couldn't accept.

That old Jew hatred is a real roadblock to peace.

 

[Frankfooter]

The details have already been provided to you. In each case, the Palestinians would have attained statehood for more than 90 per cent of the lands.

The quality of the offers wasn't the issue. The offers were rejected because they required the Palestinians to formally recognize the co-existence of a Jewish state, something they couldn't accept.

That old Jew hatred is a real roadblock to peace.

No details?
What a surprise.
Why can't you back these claims with documentation?

 

[fuji]

No details?
What a surprise.
Why can't you back these claims with documentation?

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...ts-peace-offer-to-Palestinians-exposed-314261

 

[fuji]

Disarming the whole country and put it under UN control has been successful in stopping the bloodshed in Bosnia ,so I don't see why it wouldn't be successful in Israel-palestine.

You would have to disarm Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Qatar, Kuwait, ...

The whole middle east.

Who is going to invade, conquer, and disarm all those countries?

Otherwise you leave Israel defenseless and Iran or Hezbollah or Jordan or whoever just invades and ethnically cleanses the Jews.

We already know from 1967 that UN forces won't fight to defend Israel from an Arab attack. They let the Arabs build an invasion force and when it was ready the UN obediently withdrew its peacekeeping force to make way for the Arab attack. Not to mention how deeply complicit UNRWA is with Hamas attacks on Israel.

Anyway:

Disarming the entire middle east is a nice idea in some childish fantasy but that you bring it up as a proposal just shows how completely ridiculous you are.

 

[Moviefan-2]

No details?
What a surprise.
Why can't you back these claims with documentation?

"Claims?"

As I said, the information had already been provided to you -- in some cases, in direct response to your posts.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/ClintonMyLife.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

http://www.economist.com/node/3084614

http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-rejects-olmert-s-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank-1.251578

It is interesting that you hold such strong opinions about a subject that you don't know particularly well.

Regardless, we can now agree that your "ethnic cleansing" comments were completely baseless.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Disarming the whole country and put it under UN control has been successful in stopping the bloodshed in Bosnia ,so I don't see why it wouldn't be successful in Israel-palestine.
A binational and disarmed state ( muslim bosnians -serbian ) under UN control has been successful in balkans which is a region even more problematic and ethically diverse than Middle east. So a disarmed and binational state of Israel-Palestine under control of the UN similar to bosnian model would be the prefect solution as the partition has been made impossible.
ISraelis and palestinians should look at the bosnian model

The threat to the Jews is far more serious.

Whether you like it or not, Israel is successfully defending its existence as a Jewish nation. It is irrational to expect a legitimate military to be disarmed in order to disarm the Jew-hating terrorists.

 

[Frankfooter]

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...ts-peace-offer-to-Palestinians-exposed-314261

According to wiki:

The Negotiation Support Unit (NSU) also insisted that Prime Minister Olmert provide them with a copy of the map, which was again denied. In the end, however, Mahmoud Abbas asked for a few days to consider the offer. A day after this meeting, Olmert resigned and Tzipi Livni stepped in as Acting Prime Minister, with Benjamin Netanyahu being elected shortly afterward. Palestinian negotiators said Abbas had forgotten another appointment and postponed the next meeting. Netanyahu thought Olmert had made too many concessions and refused to continue from where the last round of negotiations had left off, preferring to restart the negotiations from the beginning.[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers#The_documents

Another peace process ended by Netanyahu.

 

[Moviefan-2]

According to wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Papers#The_documents

Another peace process ended by Netanyahu.

I'm assuming you no longer dispute the fact that a peaceful two-state solution would already be in effect if the Palestinians had overcome their Jew hatred.

 

[Frankfooter]

I'm assuming you no longer dispute the fact that a peaceful two-state solution would already be in effect if the Palestinians had overcome their Jew hatred.

How did you come to that conclusion after reading that wiki post?
Its really quite the opposite of what they say.

Here's today's headline that may make you froth at the mouth, speaking of hatred.

Carter says Hamas leader committed to peace, Netanyahu notEx-president doesn’t meet PM, says it would be a ‘waste of time'; claims Mashaal is ‘not a terrorist’ and ‘strongly in favor of peace process’

http://www.timesofisrael.com/carter-says-hamas-leader-committed-to-peace-netanyahu-not/

Carter goes as far to say he'll meet with Hamas but won't meet with Netanyahu, there's no point since he's not interested in peace.