Bibi Wins, Two State Solution Dies?

[fuji]

Gaza is surrounded by Israeli forces who control the access to the land strip, the airspace the sea , the borders, the population registry and Israeli army is free to intervene anytime

Which does not contradict my statement that Israel is not present in Gaza, and last time Israel intervened in Gaza Hamas killed quite a few soldiers, so they are clearly NOT free to intervene there anytime.

So why there are Israeli army checkpoints everywhere in the west bank?

We can discuss that once you acknowledge that the Palestinian Authority has a security force and is responsible for law and order in the areas it controls.

 

[Moviefan-2]

So one state solution that gives equal rights to jews and arabs including voting rights to the ones in the west bank is the most efficient way to stop violence. Using excessive violence as a way of repression triggers more violence as response. Israeli forces have been fighting and using excessive repression in those territories but failed to stop violence.

You never did answer my earlier question: Since you don't pay attention to the polls, what is the basis for your beliefs?

Here's what we know: Israel ended its occupation of Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinians in Gaza were provided with all kinds of resources to create a prosperous society for themselves.

And what did the Palestinians do with their new-found freedom and this new opportunity that was handed to them? They escalated their attacks on Israel.

 

[fuji]

GoWest, Palestine is not a democracy. If you have an issue about that write an angry letter to the Palestinian Authority and cc a copy to Hamas. Israel certainly doesn't prevent them from holding elections and referendums.

You quite simply lost this debate, the polling evidence may not be perfect but it is the best we have, there is no better gauge available for the sentiments of the Palestinians. So unless you have a better poll, or a referendum to point to, the best evidence we have available today are those polls. Alternately you could take the actions of Hamas as evidence of the will of the people of Gaza -- namely, that they just want to kill Jews and destroy Israel. And you could take the actions of Fatah as the only slightly more moderate will of the people of the West Bank -- that they want to kill Jews and ethnically cleanse Israel but they're perhaps willing to compromise on that, maybe (but certainly haven't yet).

 

[fuji]

haha what a joke Israel didn't end occupation of Gaza , it's still besieged by Israelis and anyone who needs to get in/out need a permission from Israel , also import/export. They aren't allowed to have an airport or harbour , airspace and sea is controlled by Israel. How can you create a prosperous society under these conditions ? It looks more similar to a big jail

When Israel left Gaza in 2005 if left it with a functioning airport, an open sea port, open borders, and quite an investment of infrastructure. What did the Palestinians do with that? Did they take their new found freedom and use it to build a state? Hell no. They immediately stepped up their attacks on Jews and caused a new conflict which resulted in the closure of their airport, blockade of the port, and restrictions on the borders.

Israel did not impose the border restrictions until after Hamas stepped up its attacks, and put those restrictions in place IN RESPONSE to Hamas attacks. Israel has always been willing to relax those restrictions in exchange for Hamas commitments to guarantee Israel's security -- so really it's all on the Palestinians what they want to do with Gaza.

And so far they have been clear: They want to turn Gaza into a terrorist enclave and use it as a base to attack Israel. That is what they prefer, they could have had a prosperous economy, but they would rather have war.

 

[basketcase]

How can they build a democracy if they don't have an independent state ?

You mean other than negotiating a two state peace deal?

And no one has stopped them from having elections for the past decade other than themselves.

 

[basketcase]

... So one state solution that gives equal rights to jews and arabs including voting rights to the ones in the west bank is the most efficient way to stop violence.....

So somehow forcing a solution that Palestinians are overwhelmingly opposed to is going to stop violence?

 

[basketcase]

... Were Palestinians offered this option in a referendum ? ....

That would be the responsibility of their leadership. If the PA or Hamas refuse to allow referendums on peace, it's their own fault.

 

[basketcase]

Israel is topping them...

Israel is stopping the Palestinian leadership from negotiating? Did Israel stop Arafat and Abbas from accepting peace offers? Is Israel stopping Hamas from dropping their destructive agenda?


And democratic polling for more than a decade has shown Palestinians overwhelmingly opposed to being Israelis. You might not like polls (when they disagree with you) but pcpsr has more than enough credibility that their dozens of polls showing the same thing makes it pretty damn reliable.

 

[Moviefan-2]

I already answered this question .I don't trust polls. In democracy decisions are made on referendums not polls . Were Palestinians offered this option in a referendum ?
Also the questions in polls can be misleading, the person interviewed about one state, probably thought having citizenship of a state that favours jews. The question should be clear that one state offers equal rights to both arabs and jews.

You still haven't answered my question: I asked you what the basis is for your beliefs. You haven't answered that question.

haha what a joke Israel didn't end occupation of Gaza , it's still besieged by Israelis and anyone who needs to get in/out need a permission from Israel , also import/export. They aren't allowed to have an airport or harbour , airspace and sea is controlled by Israel. How can you create a prosperous society under these conditions ? It looks more similar to a big jail

Fuji already addressed this point but to just to reinforce it: Israel most certainly did end the occupation in 2005.

The situation today exists because the Palestinians chose to escalate their attacks and build terror tunnels rather than try to create a prosperous society.

Israel is topping them because they are denying them a state and in the same time denying them the right to vote in Israeli elections which is nondemocratic because if they aren't allowed to have a state then they have to vote in Israeli elections

"Denying them a state"?

It seems someone has once again forgotten that the Palestinians were offered their own state on three occasions. The offers were rejected.

 

[basketcase]

... Why do you want to force a solution on people who are overwhelmingly opposed to. One state solution is the way to go then

What a joke you are. You complain about forced solutions then proceed to suggest forcing a solution on them they clearly oppose.

April 2015 - 68% oppose one state.
Dec 2014 - 71% opposed
Sept. 2014 - 71% opposed
June 2014 - 68% opposed
Mar. 2014 - 72% opposed
Dec. 2013 - 66% opposed
Sept. 2013 - 70% opposed
June 2013 - 69% opposed
Mar. 2013 - 70% opposed
Dec. 2012 - 71% opposed
Sept. 2012 - 68% opposed
June 2012 - 67% opposed
Mar. 2012 - 61% opposed
Dec. 2011 - 70% opposed
Sept. 2011 - 72% opposed

I could go on but 15 straight polls with similar results seems pretty telling.

http://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/154

 

[Moviefan-2]

If that's true, then they should stay part of Israel because according to you they are desperate to remain part of Israel.

"If that's true"?

That's a rather bizarre way to describe confirmed historical facts. It sounds to me like you don't know what you're talking about.

Furthermore, independent statehood was rejected because the Palestinian leaders weren't prepared to accept a Jewish state in the Middle East. When you think about it, the Palestinians' actions make it pretty clear they could not live peacefully with the Jews in the kind of amalgamated state that you're proposing.

 

[fuji]

How can they build a democracy if they don't have an independent state ?

Toronto is a democracy. Is Toronto an independent state? Stop being an idiot.

Nothing stops Abbas from calling an election.

 

[fuji]

If that's true, then they should stay part of Israel because according to you they are desperate to remain part of Israel .

How many times do we have to call you or on this lie? They cannot "stay" part of Israel, they have never been part of Israel. And it doesn't matter whether they want to be or not, Israel doesn't want that territory.

 

[fuji]

Why it's refusing to withdraw from that territory then and continues to build settlements ? If Israel didn't want that territory the could simply withdraw from it and Palestinians would be able to declare a state once complete withdrawal is done

The Palestinians would attack, and without Israel blockading them, would receive advanced weapon systems from Iran to do so. Note what happened when Israel pulled out of Gaza: more attacks on Israel rather than less.

Until the Palestinians give up on their racist war of aggression against Israel peace is not possible in any form.

 

[Moviefan-2]

If Israel didn't want that territory the could simply withdraw from it and Palestinians would be able to declare a state once complete withdrawal is done

Yeah, that worked so well in Gaza.

Meanwhile, I don't think I should let you off the hook for the comments you made yesterday.

Yes or no: Do you accept the reality that the Palestinians were offered an independent state?

 

[Moviefan-2]

Israel didn't withdraw from Gaza, they kept it under siege. jail guards don't need to be inside the prison , all they need is to watch the walls.

Nonsense. You haven't got a clue what actually happened.

What's more significant, though, is the fact that you removed my question from the part of the post that you quoted, and then evaded the question in your response.

You've been going on for days about how Israel is supposedly "denying" statehood to the Palestinians. I would like to know if you have any idea what you're talking about.

Let's try again.

Yes or no: Do you accept the reality that the Palestinians were offered an independent state?

 

[Frankfooter]

You've been going on for days about how Israel is supposedly "denying" statehood to the Palestinians. I would like to know if you have any idea what you're talking about.

While the UN and most of the world recognizes Palestine as a state under Israeli occupation, Israel doesn't.
"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has urged the International Criminal Court (ICC) to reject the Palestinians' request for a membership because they did not rank as a state.
"We expect the ICC to reject the hypocritical request by the Palestinian Authority, which is not a state but an entity linked to a terrorist organisation," he said in a statement on Thursday, referring to Hamas."
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...reject-palestinian-bid-20151117815257173.html

 

[Moviefan-2]

No it's Israel that is denying them a state and the latest statements of Netenyahu is an evidence and even if what you claim was true that would be an argument for one state solution because according to your logic Palestinians want to remain part of Israel and Israel is refusing to withdraw from West bank

"Even if" what I "claim" is true?

It's not a claim. It's been reported throughout the world media. In the case of the negotiations with Arafat, the details were confirmed by every person familiar with the negotiations.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/ClintonMyLife.html

http://www.economist.com/node/3084614

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

http://www.haaretz.com/news/pa-rejects-olmert-s-offer-to-withdraw-from-93-of-west-bank-1.251578

The Palestinians were offered their own state and rejected the offers. Your assertions that Israel has been "denying" statehood to the Palestinians are false.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Bravo. Israel rejects a state for palestinians....

Wrong again. Israel's position is that statehood is something that has to be negotiated and that the Palestinians haven't negotiated an agreement to achieve statehood.

 

[basketcase]

While the UN and most of the world recognizes Palestine as a state under Israeli occupation, Israel doesn't....

Of course they don't...yet. Most people see negotiations as the way for a Palestinian state to be created.

Of course Hamas is 100% opposed to that concept.